Replies

FK: "Of course He was fully human. But not only was He NOT stained by original sin, He was also fully God."

Neither was Adam and he was free to disobey the will of God; and He chose to exercise (actually abuse) his freedom. From that we learn that when we abuse our freedom, we loose it.

False premise. You can't compare Adam's unique original condition to ours today. Now, only the saved are free, and in a different way than Adam. We do abuse it from time to time and are punished for it, but scripture says we cannot lose it permanently.

The difference is that Christ in His humanity chose not to disobey. That was His choice. Was He double-predestine as well and subject to the necessity of His own "plan?"

So you would say that Christ was free to contradict His own nature? You would say that even though the Bible says it can't happen, that Christ was free to serve two masters? Interesting. I assume you would say that God is unchangeable simply by the chance that Jesus chose not to sin? I could go on all day, but you get the idea. :)

BTW, no one is double-predestined to anything. That doesn't even make sense. ............. God made a plan and has been executing it flawlessly. That plan obviously included Jesus.

No wonder heretics also quote scriptures! Perhaps that's why Origen, who cannot be accused of theological poverty, eventually began teaching the error of "hierarchichal" Trinity.

You are totally misunderstanding me. I am not saying there is any hierarchy in the Trinity. There is not. Jesus said "I and the Father are one". You were attacking scripture again by saying it contradicts and I was showing you that perspective matters.

False premise. You can't compare Adam's unique original condition to ours today

Freedom is freedom, FK. Adam was free to sin and so are we. If our Lord Jesus Christ is fully human, then he possess the same freedom as we do, else he is not fully human. The difference is, unlike Adam, Christ chose not to sin.

Now, only the saved are free, and in a different way than Adam. We do abuse it from time to time and are punished for it, but scripture says we cannot lose it permanently

Technically speaking, that's correct. It all depends what "saved" means. To you it means here and now. To us it doesn't. We believe that after death those who in God's eyes are deemed saved will be eternally saved. Those who die unrepentant will remain eternaly lost.

We cannot repent or sin after death. That means our freedom will be taken away forever. No one will be free to sin or to repent. But those who choose God will be in bliss because it will be their choice.

Those who are lost will suffer because they made a wrong choice. But both will be exactly where they chose to be. God gave Adam the freedom to choose, and Christ restored it to us.

Adam ended where his choice took him; Christ ended when his choice took him; and we end where our choices take us. Neither Adam, nor Chirst nor we are forced to disobey or obey God.

So you would say that Christ was free to contradict His own nature?

Christ's human and divine natures are unconfused, FK. We cannot contradict our human nature and neither could Christ in his humanity. The same goes for his divine nature.

You would say that even though the Bible says it can't happen, that Christ was free to serve two masters?

No, he could serve only one. He chose the divine—consistently. He wasn't forced.

I assume you would say that God is unchangeable simply by the chance that Jesus chose not to sin?

I think you are confusing Christ's humanity with his divinity and treating them as one and the same.

I could go on all day...

So can I. It all comes down to the Reformed idea that we are forced to be God's slaves or enemies.

BTW, no one is double-predestined to anything. That doesn't even make sense

That's the most Orthodox thing you ever said! Double-predsetination is the pillar of the Reformed superstition.

God made a plan and has been executing it flawlessly. That plan obviously included Jesus.

God's "plan" (according to the Reformed): God makes man, God makes man sin, God is so offended by man's sin he tortures and kills his Son (who is really one and the same God, so he kills himself) so that some men, whom he preordained from all eternity to be saved are saved, and some who are preordained from all eternity to be roasted are roasted. Reformed thelogy in a nutshell.

Mental note: why does all-knowing transcendental God need a plan?

You are totally misunderstanding me. I am not saying there is any hierarchy in the Trinity. There is not. Jesus said "I and the Father are one"

How convenient that you would not mention that Jesus is also quoted as saying "Father is greater than I."

Thank you so much for the ping to this engaging sidebar and for sharing all of your insights!

I only have one thing to contribute for the discussion - namely, that the sense of "free will" is grounded in the sense of time passing - much like entropy (cars rust, people age) and counting (1,2,3, etc.)

Or to put it another way, in the absence of time there is no free will, no entropy, no change, no cause, no effect.

Space/time is part of the Creation. We mere mortals are denizens of it and our vision and mind is limited by it. But we should not presume our limitations apply to God. The Creator is not limited by His Creation.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

Thus, when He says that He doesn't change. That is Truth.

For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. - Malachi 3:6

And thus, when He says that He obeys. That is also Truth.

I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:30

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. - John 12:27

And thus when He says "if/then" that is also Truth.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

And thus, when He says we are chosen from the foundation of the world, that is also Truth.

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

Man is not the measure of God.

We ought always believe and trust the words of God because they are His.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48

Nevertheless, only those with "ears to hear" can perceive the words of God.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. - Matthew 22:29

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. - I Corinthians 1:24

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

To God be the glory, not man, never man.