***Do you mean good works in God’s eyes? Truly good works? My position is NOT that the appearance of a good work proves true faith. We can’t know that. But we CAN know that the heathen can do NO good works.***
But the Reformed claim that even the non-elect do God’s will and will in some cases help the elect towards their eternal salvation. Actually, I thought that you said something to that effect. Is that not good works in God’s eyes - the assisting of the elect towards recognizing their status and eternal salvation?
***True faith is the ONLY thing that bears true fruit, good works, in God’s eyes:***
But if the Reformed claim that good works is evidence of salvation, how does that provide evidence to us if only God understands whether it’s good works or not.
***It is obedience to God. In my personal book, that is essential. :)***
But it’s not about your personal book, or mine. It’s about God’s.
***I do not obey to earn points toward salvation, I obey because I WANT to with the new heart that God gave me.***
How do you separate your own selfish wants from the want to obey God? You must have some selfish wants since the Reformed do admit that the elect wander into sin. Sin is the pursuit of selfish wants instead of obedience to God. How would you characterize that struggle?
***What happens if one of the elect simply neglected to do good works?
That can’t happen, simply on a definitional level.***
Says who? Whose definition?
***True believers CAN go through lapses in faith, entailing not doing works. However, it cannot be fatal ultimately because Christ loses NONE of those the Father has given Him.***
If you truly believe, how can you go through lapses in faith? Scripture says that none can snatch them out of His hand, not that they cannot walk away - the goats and those who sin boldly.
***Along with yourself, I like to think that my Catholic teachers are VERY good. :)***
Thank you for the compliment. I do, however think more of myself as a dwarf standing on the shoulders of theological giants. Including some folks right here on FR.
***I look at the realities of our children and how we shape them as parents. One classic example is having a small child “help” with something. Even though the actual help was negligible we still thank them and they feel like they have contributed.***
I’m sorry but I really don’t get this analogy.
In the macro-sense, "everything" is God's will. But in the micro-sense God never wants anyone to sin, God wants all to be saved, etc. Similar ideas are big picture/small picture and outward call/inward call. So, God did not force Judas to betray Jesus, and since Jesus taught all not to sin, God did not want it. However, for God's bigger plan the betrayal was necessary, so God DID "want" it.
Is that not good works in God’s eyes - the assisting of the elect towards recognizing their status and eternal salvation?
No, only a believer can do something "good" because it was with a heart for God. A believer and a non believer can both help the same little old lady across the street, but only one was a good work in God's eyes.
But if the Reformed claim that good works is evidence of salvation, how does that provide evidence to us if only God understands whether it’s good works or not.
A fair and good point. We can't be sure. If I see a man doing what look like good works to me, I can't know if they are good in God's eyes. That's why it is only evidence as opposed to proof. Perhaps we should say "possible evidence".
How do you separate your own selfish wants from the want to obey God?
My own selfish wants defy scripture. I have them, and it is a struggle. To combat those desires I have such as scriptures, prayer, church, family, friends, and all that Holy Spirit does for me.
Mark: ***What happens if one of the elect simply neglected to do good works?***
FK: ***That can’t happen, simply on a definitional level.***
Says who? Whose definition?
Says God:
Eph 2:8-10 : 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I include 8 and 9 to show who "we" is. This is a big picture passage, so we can either thwart God's will (plan) or we cannot and God gets what He wants on a macro level. So, in the normal course, the elect WILL do good works as an echo of being saved.
If you truly believe, how can you go through lapses in faith?
First, we live in an imperfect world and we were never promised that we would be immune from any sin after becoming believers. Second, if as believers we COULD NOT go through lapses in faith then there would be no room left to grow in our faith. We would in fact be perfect. God could have set it up that way, but for His own reasons He obviously did not choose to do so. He wants us to grow.
Scripture says that none can snatch them out of His hand, not that they cannot walk away - the goats and those who sin boldly.
Unbelievable. So you would draw a Biblical distinction between a believer snatching himself out of God's hands and him walking away? I'd love to hear how that works.
It also doesn't say that by saying "abracadabra" the power of the universe is transferred into the hands of the believer and he becomes his own God. I assume because it doesn't say that, that you believe it must be true anyway. :) I find that an alarming number of the most important Apostolic beliefs rely totally on what the Bible DOES NOT say. Two other examples are Mariology and Eucharistic theology.
FK: ***I look at the realities of our children and how we shape them as parents. One classic example is having a small child “help” with something. Even though the actual help was negligible we still thank them and they feel like they have contributed.***
I’m sorry but I really don’t get this analogy.
Jo Kus and I went through this one a long time ago. It's a perspective issue. Imagine a little girl seeing her mother pulling out ingredients and putting them on the kitchen counter. She asks what mommy is doing and mommy is going to bake a cake. The little girl wants to help. The mother might let the little girl open a package and maybe even stir a little bit, but she's not going to let the girl near an electric mixer, and never even close to a hot oven. When the cake comes out of the oven the little girl says: "Look mommy, we did it!" The mother smiles and nods in approval.
From the little girl's perspective she REALLY helped and the end result was really partly due to her efforts. However, from the mother's perspective we know that the girl's help was not only unnecessary, but if anything slowed the process down. The mother allowed the child to think she was really helping. The deeds of the child were in reality a fiction as to contributing toward the creation of the cake.
I say it is similar with us and God. Our salvation is the cake, which would have been made perfectly if we were never in the kitchen. But like the mother, God lets us participate, under full supervision. He gives us the ability to "come to our own decision" to accept Christ into our lives, so we feel like we did it. However, the truth is really that we had nothing to do with it.