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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
FK: ***Works are essential for fulfilling God’s plan for His children: Eph 2:10

So what happens if you don’t? What are the works essential for? How are they essential?

If we don't then we never had faith in the first place, as James said. That's pretty essential, but it is not independent. No one can have true faith and then not do works. Works are an echo of faith, but faith alone is what saves. Per my above, specifically, one example of fulfilling God's plan by works is evangelizing. Another is loving my neighbor, etc.

FK: *** That is, I could ask why shouldn’t Catholics feel they can sin all they want to during the week, and then simply clean it up with a confession and a couple of “Hail Mary’s”. ***

Because that is not true repentance; if you intend upon committing the same sins over and over again, then one remains in that state of sin.

But I thought that the Catholic position was that through Apostolic succession any priest had the authority to absolve sin based on John 20:23. I have been told that Heaven accepts the decision of the priest (even one who has wrongly been fooled). That doesn't match what you are saying.

But if the Reformed have every action in their lives dictated and controlled, there is no free will and the works are mechanical only.

That is the classic difference between God's POV and man's. Men fully experience free will, so it is fully real, for us. On a higher plane, God is in control. Some of the time, we are only intellectually aware of it, but many other times we can witness it first hand, like witnessing the birth of a child.

3,914 posted on 03/11/2008 11:16:40 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

***No one can have true faith and then not do works. ***

I would agree with that from a Catholic perspective. But I would disagree with the idea that only true faith brings good works. Therefore good works is evidence only of faith and not proof.

The heathen can do good works and the Reformed elect can do evil. Which proves nothing.

The question still stands: what is essential about good works from a Calvinist perspective other than the fact that is a nice thing to do and is mentioned by Jesus. What happens if one of the elect simply neglected to do good works? Does it have any effect on his salvation (I understand that the Calvinist says no)? If not, then what does it have an effect on?

***But I thought that the Catholic position was that through Apostolic succession any priest had the authority to absolve sin based on John 20:23. I have been told that Heaven accepts the decision of the priest (even one who has wrongly been fooled). That doesn’t match what you are saying.***

You appear to be correct. The Catholic doctrines that I have scrutinized support that. Based upon the passages in Matthew and John, that is the case.

***That is the classic difference between God’s POV and man’s. Men fully experience free will, so it is fully real, for us. On a higher plane, God is in control. ***

Sounds like rationalizing to me. :)


3,924 posted on 03/12/2008 8:11:05 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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