Okay, I think I get that. But as for clergy being superior? Not personally. Not at all. (It is to laugh!) Just as there are many quite virtuous atheists, certainly more virtuous than I, so also there are pastors outside the Catholic clergy who are paragons in many respects. Not far from here is a very holy Baptist pastor.
I THINK you'll find that most Catholics view most Catholic clergy with genial contempt, or sometimes sullen contempt. I have been very fortunate in that I know about 4 or 5 who are very good, and even holy, men. But I know at least one that shouldn't be allowed out without a nurse or a warden or something.
My only point was that under some guise of "to whom much is given much will be expected" one would expect to see something different in the Apostolic clergy and hierarchy, as opposed to other Christian clergy.
In all our dreams. But the world as we greet it gives us clergy, especially bishops and popes with whom Dante cheerily litters the floors of the Inferno. The only thing I can say is that the Eucharist is all the more splendid in the hands of one of the bozos, like a pearl in mud.
I'm reading a life and times of Dominic, and I'm impressed that it was very providential that he had a couple of moderately sane and good popes and bishops to work with, who recognized the need for some good old fashioned evangelism. It was by no means a certainty. Some of that was just the slow, painful working out of the place of the Church in the controlled thuggery that was pre-national feudalism.
BUT I really don't trouble myself in my day to day life about whether this or that is "mortal". I know that seems to run counter to the whole shtick. I hit the confessional every 2 or 3 weeks and, as I say, for me it's an exercise in putting my claim to trust in God to the test. If I trust God, then surely I can bear the embarrassment of telling father so-and-so not only that but how I messed up.
And I GUESS the point of that is to say that I think, experientially, if my experience is anything to go by, the "theology" of confession is over here and the practice is over there. I do not go to "get into heaven" or even to "restore my relationship with God SO THAT I can get into heaven." I go because I'm minimally less of a difficult scoundrel when I go than when I don't. And I do note a certain comparative ease in my prayers when I'm not chewing over some sin.
Now whethr I would allow myself to use a brieg interview with a priest to "settle" the part of the sin which was agaianst God without the "theology", I don't know. But it's not an "Oh my goodness, I have to confess before I get hit by a train!" thing. How can I say this? When you know God forgives you, it is almost a joy to confess. It's a celebration of forgiveness in which I get to play supporting actor. "Also Starring MAD Dawg, as the penitent sinner! (with film clips form real life!)" I am happy to swagger, almost, into the chapel and spend ten minutes in prayer as my "penance"." Wow, God! I offended you and for my alleged punishment you want me to submit myself to your grace by opening myself to you in prayer! Is that a deal or what?
Now, I DO know one lady who might possibly meet the expectation of being all in a dither because she said, "Drat!" and is afraid she might die before she gets absolution. But that strikes me as a problem more for the psychiatrist or some kind of counselor than for the theologian. I hear Paxil works wonders.
As far as SOME of the pro-forma slams on Calvinists and Babdissts go, you will note I don't play. I dare to say I know how the growing perception that God chose one from before the foundation of the world for no reason other than sheer unmerited love -- how that notion leads one to hope to find ways to "Show forth [His] praise not only with our lips, but in our lives," and to deepen one's relationship (in whatever sense that might be up to one) with so great and amazing a Lover -- and to share, again as much as that is up to one, that Love with others.
So you won't catch me asking why people who feel that God made them for Himself and His love try to lead their lives in response to that Love.
Okay, I think I get that. But as for clergy being superior? Not personally. Not at all. (It is to laugh!) Just as there are many quite virtuous atheists, certainly more virtuous than I, so also there are pastors outside the Catholic clergy who are paragons in many respects. Not far from here is a very holy Baptist pastor.
Well, I will say that I can't imagine a single Catholic (good) priest lording his superiority and powers over the laity. I don't think we see that. However, what I am talking about is the group, and the claims of the group. The actual words are never there, which is fine, I wouldn't admit to it either, probably. :) But I DO see a sentiment there.
BTW, don't sell yourself short. If there were more virtuous atheists than me IN GOD'S EYES, then I would be forced to re-examine my entire Christianity. I am happy to slide you the benefit of the doubt. :)
I THINK you'll find that most Catholics view most Catholic clergy with genial contempt, or sometimes sullen contempt.
Even in the good spirited manner in which I know (believe? :) you say this, I confess I had no idea. :)
FK: My only point was that under some guise of "to whom much is given much will be expected" one would expect to see something different in the Apostolic clergy and hierarchy, as opposed to other Christian clergy.
In all our dreams. But the world as we greet it gives us clergy, especially bishops and popes with whom Dante cheerily litters the floors of the Inferno.
Yes, and I can intellectually accept that with no slam on your clergy because mine are perhaps no better pound for pound. My beef is with the claims.
BUT I really don't trouble myself in my day to day life about whether this or that is "mortal". I know that seems to run counter to the whole shtick. I hit the confessional every 2 or 3 weeks and, as I say, for me it's an exercise in putting my claim to trust in God to the test. If I trust God, then surely I can bear the embarrassment of telling father so-and-so not only that but how I messed up.
You evidence to me that you are a devout and practicing Catholic. I do believe that you practice the words that you preach. My PURELY anecdotal experience with other Catholics in the business world has been that most are not such as you. I know that my personal observation is no where good enough to disqualify Catholicism, but I make it nonetheless to raise the issue of what the typical Catholic thinks. The "Johnny lunchpail" Catholic. Or, closer to me, the "Joe six-pack" Catholic. :) My brotherly concern is over what the uneducated and untrained Catholic thinks about confession and salvation. Again, PURELY anecdotally, I have known many Catholics who show no sort of understanding of true Catholic doctrine (and to some extent dogma) as you and others here clearly do have, for real. That gives me great concern over the EFFECT that the power structure has on the every day Catholic. I see SOME (not all) of them living in fear over what men pronounce that is extra-scriptural.
And I GUESS the point of that is to say that I think, experientially, if my experience is anything to go by, the "theology" of confession is over here and the practice is over there. I do not go to "get into heaven" or even to "restore my relationship with God SO THAT I can get into heaven." I go because I'm minimally less of a difficult scoundrel when I go than when I don't.
OK, I won't throw rocks at that testimony. I take you at your word. I would just ask you to consider how things look to us others who see the powers that are claimed on behalf of the hierarchy. I would also add that we confess too, though not to a priest, and it may be perhaps for similar reasons that you do in the biggest picture.
Wow, God! I offended you and for my alleged punishment you want me to submit myself to your grace by opening myself to you in prayer! Is that a deal or what?
YES, that is a wonderful deal. When one has the faith to KNOW that God forgives, as you have said, then one can begin to have an understanding of God's forgiveness, without uninspired material.
Now, I DO know one lady who might possibly meet the expectation of being all in a dither because she said, "Drat!" and is afraid she might die before she gets absolution. But that strikes me as a problem more for the psychiatrist or some kind of counselor than for the theologian.
I worry that many are like this lady. (I don't lose sleep or anything, but I DO care for you guys. :) I'm just mostly going on anecdotal experience, and on the academic theology that I'm being given.
As far as SOME of the pro-forma slams on Calvinists and Babdissts go, you will note I don't play.
YES, I DO note that, and I thank you. :)