I am starting with the premise that they were human, and you are claimng that they were led by the Holy Spirit. I don't have to prove anything. You do.
Ah, so if this is true, then I'm sure you would agree with me that it is fully possible that the early Church Fathers were wrong about a great many things. :)
Many of them, FK. They are all on the list of trinitarian and christological heretics. Many a Church leader did not fully grasp the orthodox faith. That's why there were so many councils regarding their differences.
It took the Church 300-plus years to weed out most chrisotlogical and trinitarian heresies, and just as long to agree on the canon.
That's what +Ignatius, and Irenaeus, to mention the ealriest ones, wrote about. That's what +Paul's Epistles are all about—aberrant church communities.
Christianity was divided from the getgo, just as it is today. We are no different than Israel was under the Old Covenant. It's really hard to imagine God planned it that way!
Kosta: There is nowhere in the NT that says that Christ came to save the Gentiles. It was a reaction to the Jewish refusal of His ministry
FK; If God is only a reactor, rather than a leader, then God follows man. This is not the God I know
I am not asking about "your" God; I am stating what's written (or better yet what's not written). So, to put it another way, the God you claim to know is not quoted as having said He came to save the Gentiles; only the lost sheep of Israel.
But in that same story He says to the Gentile: "Woman, you have great faith, your request is granted". Now, do you really think that if she had asked Him to forgive her sins right there Jesus would have said "Sorry, no can do you DOG!"? Of course not. This story is a great clue as to what Jesus knew was coming
Mercy is extended to dogs as well. They are God's creatures too. On the other hand,you could say that she converted when she saw Christ and was therefore no longer a "dog." But, then, Jesus would have known that and would not have to wait to "discover" her great faith.
You are making my point for me
No, I am not. :)
Can anyone change his own essence?
Of course. What do you think happened to Adam and Eve? Were they created mortal?
I thought you used to be one who argued strongly that God plays no favorites
I still do. It's not God; it's +Paul. We are talking about +Paul, remember?
While it is true that the message was designed to be carried to the Jews first, there was never any question but that it would also be taken to the Gentiles. God actually knew what He was doing.
This is still +Paul talking. Christ is never quoted as having said anything like that.
No one ever has or ever will be saved by following the law. That is a works based salvation and no one can do it.
The Jews believed that, and so did many Christian Jews. They considered Gentile converts the same way as the Jews considered Noahides: saved but not equal to the Jews. Not everyone subscribed to +Paul's formula. The early Fathers clearly remind us of "Judaizers" and, as Didache calls them, "hypocrites."
Beware of worshiping +Paul.
Yes, in many ways I couldn't agree more. And this truth is why many of those on my side have trouble understanding or accepting the idea of "always and everywhere believed".
[continuing:] It's really hard to imagine God planned it that way!
I agree that it is difficult in some ways. However, I don't see it as being altogether unhealthy either. Paul and Barnabas split and the long term result was good for Christianity. Now, I realize that they probably did not disagree as much as you and I do, BUT we still have the most fundamental and important things in common. If it is actually true that in Heaven there are Orthodox and Baptists and Latins and Presbyterians, etc., etc., then I can conceive of how God could have wanted things to be exactly the way they are right now.
So, to put it another way, the God you claim to know is not quoted as having said He came to save the Gentiles; only the lost sheep of Israel.
Here is a quote:
John 10:14-16 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
This is a clear reference to non-Jews (Gentiles). Paul supports Jesus by explaining to us how non-Jews can nevertheless be considered sheep. Paul AND Jesus are both right.
Mercy is extended to dogs as well. They are God's creatures too. On the other hand,you could say that she converted when she saw Christ and was therefore no longer a "dog." But, then, Jesus would have known that and would not have to wait to "discover" her great faith.
If she was converted upon seeing Jesus, a perfectly good possibility with me, then that would be further evidence that Jesus came to save Gentiles. Since Jesus knew ahead of time, and if He did not come to save Gentiles, then He would have avoided the situation.
FK: "Can anyone change his own essence?"
Of course. What do you think happened to Adam and Eve? Were they created mortal?
That's a fair point to raise, but it looks like it gets pretty sticky on defining what "essence" is. Adam and Eve were still created in God's image, just as we are, and they were capable of sin, just as we are. Of course they instituted the "Fallen nature", but for believers that is only a temporary state. In any event, at best I would think that to be a one-time exception.
FK: "While it is true that the message was designed to be carried to the Jews first, there was never any question but that it would also be taken to the Gentiles. God actually knew what He was doing."
This is still +Paul talking. Christ is never quoted as having said anything like that.
It seems like the amount of scripture you will even consider as being POSSIBLY true is getting smaller and smaller. From memory, we started with the NT, and then we narrowed that down to the Gospels, and now it looks like we are narrowing it down to only quotes from Jesus. Since the scriptures are my main source (and you have no use at all for any of my other sources :) I suppose it is going to remain particularly difficult to make arguments to you that you could possibly find reasonable. :)