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To: Alamo-Girl
Two issues, only to be touched on. But first thanks for the font which coddles my presbyopia (but Dawg, I thought you said you were Catholic!)

The first is the question of reason generally, and it touches on what it means to be in the image of God, what choice and freedom are, and a bunch o' stuff. And, of course, it touches on what reason is. The modern view seems to be that reason is "the meat computer", while the older view is it is a faculty whereby we perceive truth. (The lower case 't' is important here.)

Then the other is the issue of closed communion. It's not really an analogy but my first response to your complaint was "We don't believe in premarital sex, either." It's not that you're not good enough or we're too good. It's that we take Communion - Koinonia -- "discerning the body" seriously and we take YOU seriously.

(At least this is how I understood it, when, a gazillion years ago I was a seminarian/chaplain at a hospital where some RCs said Mass daily and I asked if I could communicate and they said only under very special circumstances - like I was dying or somesuch. Really I didn't think THEY were jerks, I thought, "We have GOT to work harder to end our divisions."

As long as you thought/think the doctrines and such were wedges and veils, I can't see the Holy Spirit (or the local holy-dude) letting you join us. I guess what is a fence to some is a gate to others.

As to questioning, as long as you have a priest with time and brains, your questioning would be welcome, I'd guess. As to your leading the Rosary and such, that's what I'd say we mean by being a member but not a member in full communion.

You don't believe what we teach, you don't believe what we say we are, and you disagree with us about God's promise to His Church. These are not unimportant disagreements. What seems to me to be a gift of God, the charism of the Church as a whole, seems to others to be nothing but control and power and mumbo-jumbo and hocus-pocus and veils and wedges. What seems to me to be a bridge is to you a chasm. While that is true, it would be a cheap and unsatisfactory pretense to admit you to full sacramental communion.

And the Catholic Church is not God. Um, duh? But it IS the body of Christ, we think.

As to the "our way or the highway", well, I have a joke, but it will have to wait ...

Not proofing. in haste, scuse typos.

3,134 posted on 02/26/2008 1:26:48 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; betty boop; hosepipe; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings
Thank you so much for your reply, dear Mad Dawg!

The first is the question of reason generally, and it touches on what it means to be in the image of God, what choice and freedom are, and a bunch o' stuff. And, of course, it touches on what reason is. The modern view seems to be that reason is "the meat computer", while the older view is it is a faculty whereby we perceive truth. (The lower case 't' is important here.)

Being a denizen of space and time, man suffers from an observer problem.

He travels a worldline. If Creation were a movie, he’d be seeing it one frame at a time, and not from the beginning of it.

By contrast, God sees “all that there is” all at once.

Time and space are part of the Creation, not properties of the Creator.

Thus only He knows objective Truth. He is. When He says a thing, it is.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. – John 8:58

For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth. He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast. – Psalms 33:4-9

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

Whenever man - traveling his worldline - projects his own mind onto God he ends up anthropomorphizing God into a caricature, an imagining, a small “god” his puny, mortal mind can comprehend.

Sometimes posters around here nuance the words and say they believe “in” God because they can’t possibly understand Him. But what that really says to me is that the poster is throwing up his hands and saying that his own imaginings are the best that he can do.

Or to put it another way, he is trusting his own mind to figure God out (a futile task) rather than simply taking God at His word.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

The Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or – every proposition is either true or not true) is an example. It has served man well since the days of Aristotle. But even in observing the physical realm, the law does not hold. Whether one sees a particle or a wave depends on what he is looking for.

If the Law doesn’t hold consistently in the Creation, why would anyone think the Creator would have to comply with the Law of the Excluded Middle?

And yet there are beliefs which say that Jesus Christ must be either man or God. He can’t be both because of the Law of the Excluded Middle. Other beliefs say that because of the Law of Identity, the Father, Son and Spirit are separate Gods. And there are many other such examples that have led to various doctrines and traditions of men and disputes among the members of the body of Christ.

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. – 2 Timothy 2:23

As for me, I do not and shall not intentionally filter the words of God. I gladly receive everything He says.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

Your second point:

Then the other is the issue of closed communion…As long as you thought/think the doctrines and such were wedges and veils, I can't see the Holy Spirit (or the local holy-dude) letting you join us. I guess what is a fence to some is a gate to others.

Truly, I have no desire to partake in the Eucharist in the local Catholic church – I brought that up as “Exhibit A” evidence of the exclusivity of the “club.”

And from what I have read and heard and seen there are indeed many veils and wedges between God and man built into the dogma, doctrines, teachings and sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Considering my gift and calling is to encourage other Christians to focus on the one and only Great Commandment, to love God surpassingly above all else - I would do my very best to expose the wedges and veils and my presence would be rather disruptive. Nevertheless, if the Spirit led me to do it, I would.

For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. - Romans 11:29 You continued:

me: And the Catholic Church is not God.

You: Um, duh? But it IS the body of Christ, we think.

See, there’s a wedge right there. LOL!

The body of Christ consists of all those chosen from the foundation of the world for redemption by the blood of the Lamb, regardless of when the person was, is or will be in the flesh.

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. – I John 4:9

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: - Ephesians 1:4

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. – Ephesians 5:25-32

To God be the glory!

3,181 posted on 02/26/2008 10:18:50 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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