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To: Forest Keeper

***I think you are forced to say believers are led to only a superficial and “minimal” degree, since so much power must be reserved for the Magisterium.***

It’s not power, it’s authority. The Apostles were given authority to interpret and to teach. Those who did not hold with the Apostles and their successors very often descended in apostacy and heresy. The Spirit leads, but sinful, prideful man very often chooses another leader.

***As with other verses also so interpreted, it really leaves the Spirit’s leading of the laity to be much of a joke, IMO. For anything that actually matters, my understanding is that the hierarchy of the Church claims SOLE authority to receive and interpret any messages from God. ***

It is not a joke and the Church has never claimed to be the sole authority to receive any message from God, but it does reserve the authority to interpret it.

Without the Holy Spirit, we would not have the Dominicans or the Franciscans. We would not have had Mother Teresa form her order. The Church is not a monolithic tower of power, stagnating all that it cannot stifle.

It is the teaching authority given first to the Apostles, and then passed on to the successors.

***If God ONLY leads the hierarchy of the Church on important matters, then what can a layman do? He either conforms, or he is excommunicated and, in his mind, is condemned to hell forever.***

The layman can do much; where do you think all the orders came from - both lay and clergy? Excommunication is not the condemnation of the Church - it has no power to save or damn. It is the formal recognition that the Church gives to one who has excommunicated himself.

***Sure, but to then claim that your particular Church THEREFORE holds ALL TRUTH doesn’t make sense. There are tons of examples of hierarchs of your Church disagreeing with the majority. Are the positions of your official Church based on a majority vote of hierarchs?***

The Church holds all Truth that is imparted to it by the Holy Spirit. We are not democrats - Truth is never uncovered by a voting crowd. St. Augustine disagreed with the Church for much of his life. It didn’t make it right then and it doesn’t make it right now.


2,927 posted on 02/25/2008 8:35:25 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; wmfights
Excommunication is not the condemnation of the Church - it has no power to save or damn. It is the formal recognition that the Church gives to one who has excommunicated himself.

That sounds like a very "pass-the-buck" position to me. :) As I understand it, GREAT discretion is used in the decision to excommunicate. For example, why isn't John Kerry excommunicated? Worse than that, he is still served the Eucharist. It looks like it depends on who the celebrity is and who the Bishop is. And my only point in saying this is to show that it actually IS the Church who makes a decision on whether the person is "officially" damned or not. Anyone so deemed would be prohibited from taking the sacraments, and presumably could not be saved under normal circumstances. For one, he could not have his sins forgiven through a priest and would die in a state of mortal sin.

The Church holds all Truth that is imparted to it by the Holy Spirit. We are not democrats - Truth is never uncovered by a voting crowd.

Well, then in what form does the imparting take if not by a vote of the majority?

3,425 posted on 03/02/2008 6:05:47 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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