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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
Eph 2:10 : For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. So, of course works are important

That's no different than what the Jews believe. I would say, more than important; obligatory is more like it, according to the verses you site. God must have assigned works, according to the Reformed theology, even to those who don't believe. And He uses, according to the same, those works of evil for the greater good. So, it seems like works are an integral part of God's plan as you'd call it, and not just "important," but rather essential!.

Comparing scientific laws to whether something is historically true makes no sense. By your standards believing that George Washington ever lived is solely by blind faith

In the real world, we know by examining evidence. Our fancy is not a proof. By my standards there is a greater likelihood that G. Washington lived then if there was not a historical trace of him anywhere.

Better yet, if your doctor "assured" you that he is qualified but had nothing to show for it, I doubt you would subject yourself or your love dones to his care.

Again, I will ask you want would it take for you to believe that a NY subway homeless person is Jesus Christ if he said he was and then told you to leave your wife, kids and job and follow him?

You better believe you'd ask for some proof!

Do you say that you cannot "detect" God simply from your human experience?

I can honestly answer that if God had not been mentioned from my earliest days, I would have never assumed there was God. Just as, when I was a child, I never wondered where things came from. I was too busy being in awe of them. They were there and they were fascinating. And some were good and others were not so good. Some dogs bite and some don't.

It took me a long time to realize that "nature" does not know mercy and that mercy is not of this world. From there follow a number other realizations that lead me to believe that there is something "beyond" this world.

I think most Christians would say that they CAN detect God this way.

It's deductive and it doesn't sow that it's necessarily God, but something "not of this world."

Demons detect God too, but they do not have faith. The eyes and ears are what confirm for believers that the words of scripture are true

But those who use different scriptures will tell you the same thing. What proof do you have that yours are true? The spiritual "eyes" and "ears?" Don't be ridiculous. Eyes and ears prove nothing.

They allow a believer to see what has been absolutely true all along

Unsubstantiated claim lacking any proof.

I think ALL of us have proved we have faith by the evidence of our postings here

Just because we all say we have faith doesn't prove it. Words prove nothing. They are just words.

2,875 posted on 02/24/2008 9:28:33 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
So, it seems like works are an integral part of God's plan as you'd call it, and not just "important," but rather essential!.

Yes, they just aren't used/performed to earn salvation.

Again, I will ask you what would it take for you to believe that a NY subway homeless person is Jesus Christ if he said he was and then told you to leave your wife, kids and job and follow him?

I suppose I would expect him to reveal himself to me in the same way that the Father revealed Christ's identity to Peter. PLUS, he would have to explain to me why his appearance can defy the scriptures! :)

Luke 21:25-28 : 25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Doesn't sound much like a wino in the subway. :)

FK: "Do you say that you cannot "detect" God simply from your human experience?"

I can honestly answer that if God had not been mentioned from my earliest days, I would have never assumed there was God.

Sure, no one can believe in God without God having touched him first. I guess what I really meant was that since now you are a Christian, does your human experience actively confirm His existence? I would answer absolutely "yes".

FK: "Demons detect God too, but they do not have faith. The eyes and ears are what confirm for believers that the words of scripture are true."

But those who use different scriptures will tell you the same thing. What proof do you have that yours are true? The spiritual "eyes" and "ears?" Don't be ridiculous. Eyes and ears prove nothing.

As you know, my position is that the Bible self-authenticates for believers. If others who follow false faiths say the same type of thing, what is that to us? With the proper God-given presuppositions, Christianity is a fully reasoned faith.

Just because we all say we have faith doesn't prove it. Words prove nothing. They are just words.

While we can't be certain of another's salvation, if words and actions are not "reasonable proof" to you, then what is? Should I assume that none of your clergy have any faith at all because they can't prove it? :)

3,395 posted on 03/01/2008 3:55:59 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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