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To: kosta50

“What was the test? It seems almost like a cruel game, with rules and limits, with the outcome clearly known to God.” that’s what Job thought until God met him,

Job 42:1-6, “Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

“The whole concept of Jesus being subjected to test/temptation is an oxymoron in the context of the developed Christian theology of His divinity.”

“So, to say “God” subjected Him to hunger sounds, well, “Pauline.” That’s not what history tells us.

Matt, 4:1, “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.”

“My question to you is: was there any time that Christ had any doubt or wondered if He would be able to resist the temptation and pass the test?”

Matt. 26:37-39, “And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Matt. 27:46, “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Heb. 5:7-9,”Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

“Christ is never called divine; none of the Apostles pray to him or to the Holy Spirit, even after the Resurrection.”

Why would they pray to any one but the Father when He is the one Jesus commanded us to pray to? Jesus intercedes for us and the Holy spirit helps our infirmities in prayer. they are interceding for us when we pray to the Father who knows our needs.

Matt. 6:7-13, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.”

John 16:23, “And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.”

“The divinity of Jesus is introduced for the first time in the NT in John’s Gospel,”

No, it is introduced in Matt. 1:23, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”


2,509 posted on 02/20/2008 8:41:02 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes [Job 42:4].

What is he repenting, and abhorring himself for when that same book tells us Job was "blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil." [Job 1:1]?

Matt, 4:1, “Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.”

I know what St. Matthew says. It doesn't answer my question if there was ever any doubt that Christ would not resist evil.

But consistent with the pre-divine Jesus Gospels, the author says Jesus was led by the Spirit. The Spirit here means the the Spirit of God, which in the Judaic sense does not mean a divine Hypostasis  but the power of God.

So, then, Christ, whose both divine and human natures are in perfect harmony (basic orthodox Christology), had to be tested by His own divine nature and "needed" the Holy Spirit to "guide" Him!  Hmmmm.

Matt. 26:37-39, “And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

More consistent writings indicating that Matthew's Gospel doesn't treat Jesus as divine, but as Jewish messiah. The Church interprets it through the Christological dogma declared later as something that was understood all along, namely that Christ suffered in His human nature  and had fears and felt pain, but there was never any chance that He would have done anything that was not in harmony with His divine nature, which is the same nature is of the Father and the Spirit.

Matt. 27:46, “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”

Of course, the Church here also tries to rescue the non-divine Jesus of St. Matthew by saying that, on accepting the sins of the world, Jesus felt the same separation we feel form Him when we sin. But that would mean that He actually sinned and distanced Himself form Himself.

Of course, your quote makes perfect sense if He is taken to be a non-divine Jewish messiah that Jews expect to this day.

And while you are at it, why not also mention John 14:28 "for the Father is greater than I." How Trinitarian is that?! And this was written at the end of the first century by St. John who believed that Jesus was divine (but apparently not as divine as the Father!). Is there any wonder that heretics also quote from the same New Testament?
 Even John's own Gospel has enough spiritual food for Arians to feed on.

Heb. 5:7-9,”Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

Wonderful! I love your quotes. Look what it says here: (1) Jesus had to pray to the one who could save him form death! (2) Jesus had to learn (3) He was a Son!, (4)  was made perfect (complete) through suffering.

Why would they pray to any one but the Father when He is the one Jesus commanded us to pray to? Jesus intercedes for us and the Holy spirit helps our infirmities in prayer.

So, He is not equal to the Father and we are not to worship Him, but only ask Him to intercede with the Father on our behalf? Hmmmm.  Yet we all supposedly believe in one and the same God? 

No, it [Christ's divinity]  is introduced in Matt. 1:23, “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us

I disagree. There is nothing here to suggest that the child is God, only a favorite of God. This is consistent with the rest of St. Matthew's presentation of a very human Jesus.

2,525 posted on 02/20/2008 10:44:43 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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