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To: kosta50

“One is objective the other is subjective.”

You are still relying on what someone else believed to be true. You don’t have the same documents that the 1st century had, nor do your priest have the same garments, nor did the 1st century church have the relics you use, nor the commentaries you use, nor do you know that the liturgy you use was used in the 1st century church. You are relying by faith that what your church heirarchy and history is telling you is the truth. You weren’t there when the early church started so you are using reason, probability, that what you believe is true.


2,500 posted on 02/20/2008 7:56:22 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan
You are still relying on what someone else believed to be true. You don’t have the same documents that the 1st century had, nor do your priest have the same garments, nor did the 1st century church have the relics you use, nor the commentaries you use, nor do you know that the liturgy you use was used in the 1st century church. You are relying by faith that what your church heirarchy and history is telling you is the truth. You weren’t there when the early church started so you are using reason, probability, that what you believe is true.

Bulls-eye.

2,504 posted on 02/20/2008 8:09:18 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: blue-duncan
You are still relying on what someone else believed to be true

No. We use the same liturgy our ancestors used 1700 years ago. We teach the same doctrine that was taught by the Church when it canonized the Bible. We know this objectively and have material evidence to show that it is so.

You don’t have the same documents that the 1st century had, nor do your priest have the same garments, nor did the 1st century church have the relics you use, nor the commentaries you use, nor do you know that the liturgy you use was used in the 1st century church

I never said we did. Vestments are not doctrine. Vestments are not how we worship! We do have writings from Apostolic Fathers (+Ignatius, +Polycarp) and early Chruch Fathers (ST. Clement, St. Justin Martyr, etc.) and the latter-second century Church Father (such as +Inrenaeus, etc.) to say with confidence that what the Church believed in the 4th century was no different than what it believed at the end of the first.

If you are one of those who claims the Church became "apostate" by the end of the first century, then clearly the late-1st-century bible books (NT deuterocanonicals and the Gospel of St. John) must also be deviant since they were read in those churches. And that would imply that a deviant Church infallibly collected all the inpsired documents and equally infallibly rejected some 180 profane ones! How realistic is that? Especially since such a conjecture of yours is baseless.

Now, if the Curch, then, was not deviant by the 4th century—and there are no indications that it was—but was the same Church established in the 1st century, and we teach the same doctirnes of that Church to this day, and we use the same liturgy we have used for 1700 years, it is reasonable to say that ours is the same catholic Church, teaching the same orhtodox faith, that canonized the Bible.

And because it is not predated by any other, it represents the oldest and purest form of Christianity by all accounts. It's not something we "believe in." It's something we know objectively.

2,516 posted on 02/20/2008 9:39:05 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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