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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; ...
For example, some believe BECAUSE they have seen, while others believe without seeing.

But you do realize that this business of "seeing without believing" is something Christianity had to introduce once the miracles stopped being shown on the regular basis. That's why this passage appears in John, which was written at the end of the century. It had to prepare the world to accept faith without miracles and without signs. But, think about it: if the whole world did not get converted when the miracles were occurring on a regular basis, why would it accept something on blind faith?

But, let me ask you something: what would it take for you to believe (and willing to die for that belief) that a homeless man in a New York subway, begging, is Christ almighty? 

2,387 posted on 02/20/2008 7:11:30 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Quix; the_conscience; ...
But you do realize that this business of "believing without seeing" is something Christianity had to introduce once the miracles stopped being shown on the regular basis.

No. Can you show that all the OT righteous were showed some sort of miracle before they were considered righteous? I don't think so. Job comes to mind. I'm certain there are tons of other examples. Besides, go back to the big verse:

John 20:29 : 29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Notice the tense. This was before the miracles stopped coming on a regular basis.

But, think about it: if the whole world did not get converted when the miracles were occurring on a regular basis, why would it accept something on blind faith?

It wouldn't. God never intended to convert the whole world. He intended to convert exactly all of His elect. Not one more and not one less. That is exactly what He did.

But, let me ask you something: what would it take for you to believe (and willing to die for that belief) that a homeless man in a New York subway, begging, is Christ almighty?

I have no idea of the mechanism, but if God wanted to reveal that to me He would not need to break a sweat. He has revealed as much to all of His elect in one form or another. If it happened, I assume it would be the same way the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. However, I am unaware that Christ has actually done anything like what you specifically suggest since His Ascension.

2,993 posted on 02/25/2008 12:40:48 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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