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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; ...
If we change because we have been given faith, then we should know why. If we change from "bad" to "worse", then we will not know why.

Really? And what makes you think you change for the "better" is really something God wants you to do and is not something you want to do to be on the "safe" side? If you are assured of your salvation, then sin boldly as Luther urges, and show confidence that nothing you do will affect it.

And who is the judge of whether you are a "better" person now and you are not just hiding behind your good deeds? Why, it is you, of course, who is the judge. We do the same thing, but we keep repenting because we never asusme that we are not "good enough" for God.

And if God is the micromanager in charge, then the turn for the "worse" must be God's will as well and by and of itself must be good because its from God, right? Isn't it the Reformed theology's premise that sin is something God uses to fulfill His plan? Then how can sin be bad?

Why, with this mindset, the reformed ought to be thanking and praising God when someone gets raped, killed or terminally ill! It's all good. But they sure don't act like they believe it's good! 

2,385 posted on 02/20/2008 7:10:23 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor
Correction:

we never assume that we are not "good enough" for God should read "we never assume that we are "good enough" for God"

2,388 posted on 02/20/2008 7:16:29 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Quix; the_conscience; ...
FK: "If we change because we have been given faith, then we should know why. If we change from "bad" to "worse", then we will not know why."

Really? And what makes you think you change for the "better" is really something God wants you to do and is not something you want to do to be on the "safe" side? If you are assured of your salvation, then sin boldly as Luther urges, and show confidence that nothing you do will affect it.

There is no "safe side" in this context. Those who think they are covered with a choice like that are almost certainly doomed. Pascal's wager FAILS because it is not a choice that is ours to make (ultimately). If a lost person came to me and said that he had decided to make himself better so that maybe God would accept him I would try to work this into the conversation:

Rom 7:18-19 : 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing.

So, no one who is non-elect can simply "choose" to do what is good and pleasing to God. Faith is what matters.

If I understand why it is that I am assured of salvation, then I also understand that "sinning boldly" is nonsense in the way you mean it. I know what Luther meant, and other Reformers also know. You are free to cling to that phrase if you like, but you and others who do NOT understand it are the only ones who interpret it as you do. That works out fine since you don't believe Luther anyway. :) Some on your side even call him satanic. I suppose I might agree if I interpreted him as you all do.

And who is the judge of whether you are a "better" person now and you are not just hiding behind your good deeds? Why, it is you, of course, who is the judge.

The Bible tells us to judge ourselves on such things. We are told to do reality checks on such things as taking the Lord's Supper. Our mission, through sanctification, is to conform ourselves to the image of Christ. Therefore, I always want to be aware if that is happening in my life at any given time. I don't understand why you would see this as a negative for us. Since we do not believe that deeds get us into Heaven, there is nothing for us to "hide" behind. We want to be aware that we are doing good deeds in general, but we don't put any sort of emphasis on it the way your side does, for the reasons your side does. If I was an Apostolic, then I would normally be worried if I was doing enough good deeds, and might well judge myself better in order to "hide". So, your supposition really applies much more to your side.

We do the same thing, but we keep repenting because we never assume that we are "good enough" for God.

You also never assume that Christ's sacrifice was good enough to save you. :)

And if God is the micromanager in charge, then the turn for the "worse" must be God's will as well and by and of itself must be good because its from God, right?

If it is part of God's plan, then "yes". There have been several times where I went a little south in faith. But then, after suffering something or other, I come back to the full faith with a lesson learned and my faith is stronger. I give God credit for this, rather than think that I toughed it out on my own.

Isn't it the Reformed theology's premise that sin is something God uses to fulfill His plan? Then how can sin be bad?

It's that big picture/little picture discussion I went through a while back. Certainly God uses sin to accomplish His big picture plan, but He still hates individual small picture sin EVEN THOUGH He uses it.

Why, with this mindset, the reformed ought to be thanking and praising God when someone gets raped, killed or terminally ill! It's all good. But they sure don't act like they believe it's good!

Well, we ARE specifically taught that we are blessed when we are insulted and persecuted: :)

Matt 5:11 : "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

So, I try to thank God when that happens. :)

Of course the answer is that what is good according to God's plan is often not what we seem to experience as humans. When we lose a loved one do we celebrate like we should if we "think" the person is in Heaven? Sometimes, but often not. More normal is for us to spend a period of time feeling sorry for ourselves because of the separation that is INTENDED by physical death, even though it will be pathetically short in eternal terms. God created us this way and ordained that it was right and proper to mourn:

Eccl 3:1-4 : There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, 3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, ...

Someone should write a song, ... :)

2,982 posted on 02/25/2008 11:19:26 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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