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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; ...
Perceived, experienced, or "relative" freedom is very different from "freedom to control" God.

You'll have to show me where the Church teaches that God gave man freedom to control God. The Church teaches that God gave man (limited) freedom to use (in His likeness) in exercising dominion over earth (in His image), not to "thwart" God. Our planet is way too small and insignificant, smaller than a dust particle, to have any effect on our Galaxy, let alone the Universe, or God, who is beyond everything.

Elder Cleopa, when asked what he thought of the feat of Yuriy Gagarin, the first man in space, said to the effect it was like a little bee flying out of his hive and going around it three times before returning. The rest of the world remained unshaken.

Our freedom affects us and whether we walk in God's light, or choose to walk in our fallen darkness. Christ's sacrifice on the Cross restored that freedom, which was lost with Adam's transgression.

The Reformed have concocted this myth that God is there to control everything on this little speck of dust. What He gave us was a gift and the recipients are free to do what they please with it, to their benefit or demise. Otherwise it's not a gift.

2,384 posted on 02/20/2008 7:09:39 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; wmfights; HarleyD; blue-duncan; irishtenor; Lord_Calvinus; Alamo-Girl; ...
The Reformed have concocted this myth that God is there to control everything on this little speck of dust.

LOL. The Reformed haven't concocted anything. God reveals that truth in His holy word. And I, for one, thank Him every day of my life that that fact is true and has been made known to me by the Holy Spirit.

"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." -- Isaiah 46:4-5;9-11


"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained" -- Psalm 8:3


"He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names." -- Psalm 147:4


"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" -- Job 14:5


"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation" -- Acts 17:26


"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." -- Matthew 10:29-31

I believe the Scriptures. You believe something else.

What He gave us was a gift and the recipients are free to do what they please with it, to their benefit or demise. Otherwise it's not a gift.

The "gift" is Christ on the cross, the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Non-refundable. Non-returnable. Personally-inscribed. Indelible. One gift to pay completely for all the sins of His flock (Hebrews 10:10.)

As God wills.

And thus, gratitude is the proper perspective.

2,408 posted on 02/20/2008 11:08:57 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Quix; the_conscience; ...
You'll have to show me where the Church teaches that God gave man freedom to control God.

It's everywhere. You have said over and over again that God has changed His mind and gone in new directions based on the decisions of men (i.e. the Jews failed and so God then turned to the Gentiles, etc.). In addition, the Church holds that references to predestination in scriptures all mean that God foresees who will accept Him, and then declares that they are the elect. Man leads and God follows. Further, your Church claims that your clergy and your clergy alone can request that God do certain things and God will ALWAYS do those things EVEN IF the priest is unworthy (supernatural powers). I can't ask God to enter another person with any full expectation that God will follow my lead, but your clergy claims exactly that ability, etc.

The Church teaches that God gave man (limited) freedom to use (in His likeness) in exercising dominion over earth (in His image), not to "thwart" God.

According to your Church, every single time a person does not choose God, he thwarts God's will. You can't have it both ways. Either man is free to thwart God's will or he isn't. Your side says man is free to determine his own destiny. Therefore, he must be free to control whether God gets what He says He wants.

I don't mean this in hyperbole. I don't think your side believes that man is more powerful than God. I think your side believes that God has relinquished sufficient power to men such that God will follow where man leads Him on certain issues, very important ones, and that you believe God says that is just fine with Him. God creates everything, but He has decided to pass the buck on the decision of who will enter Heaven to be with Him forever. According to the Church, God believes that it should be man who makes that decision, and God will submit to whatever will that is.

2,940 posted on 02/25/2008 9:24:27 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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