Replies

FK: "God chose from among all the people living in OT times, just as He chose from among all people today. To some He will show mercy and to others He will not. There is no "failure" in that."

There is no Christ in it either.

Well, I know that you know that I was paraphrasing what you consider to be "scripture". Here Paul was quoting from Ex. 33:19 :

Rom 9:14-18 : 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

So, to get rid of this you have to say that both Paul and Exodus were wrong.

There is nothing in the NT that says Christ came because of the Gentiles. "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."[Mat 15:24] Yeah, only. How much clearer can that be?

It can be no clearer. Just as your verse says, Christ came for His sheep. You seem to be stuck on the notion that only Jews by birth can be sheep. The NT lays waste to that notion through Paul. In addition, we have a Gospel passage that I have quoted often recently:

John 10:27-30 : 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

This quote was said BEFORE your alleged reorganization of Christianity to include Gentiles. Therefore, by your reasoning, Jesus only was talking about ALL lost Jews here. But we know that not all Jews followed Him, so this would make Jesus a liar. So obviously, your logic does not work. OTOH, if the sheep Jesus was speaking of included Gentiles and meant all of God's children from whatever race, (as Paul said), then everything fits and makes sense. As you said: "How much clearer can that be?" :)

Did the OT say anywhere that the messiah was going to come to save the Gentiles?

Yes:

Isa 53:12 : 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

If the Gentiles are not among the transgressors, then all of us are doomed.

FK: "However, since God ALWAYS intended to reach the Gentiles en mass, then what you call the failure of the Jews I would call the success of God."

And that's based on what? So, next time you see a homeless person why don't you congratulate him?

I may not be following you, but it's based on the fact that we know that Gentiles are saved. If God changed His mind we would know Him to be flawed, and He could not be omniscient.

I have no idea why I would want to congratulate a homeless person or what that would have to do with salvation.

Well, I know that you know that I was paraphrasing what you consider to be "scripture". Here Paul was quoting from Ex. 33:19 : Rom 9:14-18 : So, to get rid of this you have to say that both Paul and Exodus were wrong

The other "alternative" is a priori acceptance of it as "factual." Some people are willing to do so; I am not. If there is absolutely zero, zilch, evidence of historical Exodus (after 40 years of intense Israeli archeological search for traces of 600,000 men—and their families [unless the bible is giving incorrect numbers] roaming the Sinai for 40 years and finding nothing—but founing lots of evidence of Egyptian presence in the Sinai of that time period), then I may have some reservations about such a priori acceptance.

Obviously, St. Paul couldn't have known that, just as OT prophets didn't know that bats are not birds. The bible is not a historical and scientific encyclopedia.

Just as your verse says, Christ came for His sheep. You seem to be stuck on the notion that only Jews by birth can be sheep

Yeah, given that He specifically never spoke of preaching to the Gentiles and called them dogs. Given that He prohibited His disciples to preach to the Gentiles. Given that He picked twelve disciples, one for each tribe of Israel (Jews) and that His disciples, even after the resurrection, expected Him to simply restore the kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6), as the Jewish messiah is supposed to do.

We know, as a biblical fact, that the only reason the Gospels were taken to the Gentiles is because the Jews rejected them (Act 13:46). We also know that Jesus never told them that the Jews would reject them when He sent His disciples to preach to the Jews only.

You seem to be stuck on the notion that only Jews by birth can be sheep. The NT lays waste to that notion through Paul

Of course it does. Without Paul Christianity would be dead. He had to convince the Gentiles that this was their faith as well. But it was not what Christ taught in the Gospels. It was Paul's gospel. He had to dispense with a lot of "jewishness" in order achieve that. Which is why the rabbis at Jamnia finally condemned Christianity and Christianity was no longer a Jewish sect, but a whole new Gentile religion. The idea that we are "extended" Israel is a Christian construct. Christ never taught that Gentiles are "extended" Israel.

This quote was said BEFORE your alleged reorganization of Christianity to include Gentiles

John's Gospel was written sixty years after Christ, and represents a very different kind of Christology as compared to Paul's teaching or the synaptic Gospels.

Therefore, by your reasoning, Jesus only was talking about ALL lost Jews here. But we know that not all Jews followed Him, so this would make Jesus a liar

Jesus says He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel. It doesn't say all. He also said "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many" (Mat 26:27) and not for all (because not all would come to Him).

Isa 53:12

That's weak, FK. There is no reference to any messiah before the post-Babylonian books of the OT (Daniel, psalms, etc.), and nowehere in the OT does it say that God will "save" the Gentiles.

If anything the OT says that God's servant "will bring forth judgment to the nations." [Isa 42:1]