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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; HarleyD; wmfights; the_conscience
Thank you for your engaging essay-post!

The way the term "Gnostic" is used around here I suspect the polar opposite would be "Empiricist."

An empiricist accepts as certain knowledge only that which is obtained by sensory perception, and to that he adds reason. He excludes Spiritual perception on principle.

Conversely, we Christians who have "ears to hear" accept only the words of God as certain knowledge. Sensory perception and reason are greatly subordinated. We walk by faith not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. - Psalms 23:4

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. - I John 4:4-6

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:12-14

Romans 8 speaks very clearly that we must follow the Spirit not our carnal nature.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9

Christians who have "ears to hear" receive all of the words of God as Truth per se.

Christians who still have empiricist leanings - who are still living by sight instead of faith - accept or reject the words of God using mortal standards. For instance, an empiricist would exclude many Scriptures on the basis that, logically, every proposition must be true or false - it can't be both (the Law of the Excluded Middle.)

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

Man is not the "measure" of God.

2,058 posted on 02/14/2008 8:19:57 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; HarleyD; wmfights; the_conscience; kosta50; irishtenor; ...
The way the term "Gnostic" is used around here I suspect the polar opposite would be "Empiricist." An empiricist accepts as certain knowledge only that which is obtained by sensory perception, and to that he adds reason. He excludes Spiritual perception on principle.

Yes, I think you're exactly right. Thanks for your wonderful post. I see what you're talking about every time we are compared to Muslims, which is often. I suppose that without the extra-scriptural Tradition of the Church, everyone else, including other Christians, are all Gnostics.

Conversely, we Christians who have "ears to hear" accept only the words of God as certain knowledge. Sensory perception and reason are greatly subordinated. We walk by faith not by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)

Yes, and thanks for the great supporting scripture. I have been reading this conversation and I think you and I may be getting to the same place from slightly different directions. I have been saying that our faith is indeed a reasonable (reasoned) one, but with the prerequisite that we start with Godly presuppositions. These must be given by God. Without them, God's word is nonsense, but with them I think the faith makes perfect sense.

Man is not the "measure" of God.

AMEN! Absolutely true.

2,193 posted on 02/17/2008 8:01:40 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

***The way the term “Gnostic” is used around here I suspect the polar opposite would be “Empiricist.”

An empiricist accepts as certain knowledge only that which is obtained by sensory perception, and to that he adds reason. He excludes Spiritual perception on principle.***

By the grace of God, we Catholics are neither. We are instructed not to tempt God or to demand proofs, as empiricists (such as St. Thomas) do. We believe; we have faith. We hope in eternal salvation with God in Heaven.

We do as we are instructed. We have the Faith; we are neither Gnostic nor empiricist.

***Man is not the “measure” of God. ***

No, he is not. Man is the creature of God made in His own image. With many here, God is the creature of man made in his own image.


2,267 posted on 02/19/2008 6:09:06 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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