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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; kosta50; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; the_conscience; wmfights; ...
Thank you so very much for your graciously composed essay-post!

If I have been fair enough, I hope you can see why we use terms like "works-based salvation" with you all. I think most Reformers around here know that this is not the same as full Pelagianism. Your side has made it clear that you believe that without grace no one is saved. We disagree on whether works are actually a part of faith itself, or if it is something separate that must be decided upon by a true believer. We don't think true believers have anything to decide because it is already a part of them:

2 Cor 5:17 : Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Very well said. Beautiful Scripture!

As I have mentioned before, about half of my family is Catholic. And the entire family is Christian.

And I have noticed among my Catholic relatives the phenomenon of uncertainty. It seems to result from a sense of separate-from-God responsibility for doing good works and a lingering doubt that anything they could do would be good enough.

The uncertainty was particularly evident when my oldest brother, a Catholic, weighed anchor from this mortal life. The survivors who were Catholic were more troubled by his passing.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:25-30

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. - John 14:1-3

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice. - Philippians 4:4

Marantha, Jesus!

1,615 posted on 02/08/2008 9:13:21 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; wmfights; blue-duncan; Quix; the_conscience; ...
Thank you to Alamo-Girl and Forest Keeper for two splendid posts!

ALAMO-GIRL: the phenomenon of uncertainty. It seems to result from a sense of separate-from-God responsibility for doing good works and a lingering doubt that anything they could do would be good enough.

AMEN! This is the nagging fear and doubt that nearly drove Luther mad. In struggling to be righteous in his own mind and heart, and to perform enough good works he realized nothing he could do would be good enough to merit salvation.

FOREST KEEPER: Whatever God's threshold is, those who have done "enough" will see Heaven, and those who haven't done enough, regardless of faith, will be sent to the down escalator.

Exactly! As Forest Keeper and A-G both said so well, the imprecision and ambiguity of God's supposed "thresh-hold" of good works needed for salvation inevitably leads to anxiety and uncertainty and even to a kind of self-loathing because we fear the "thresh-hold" is beyond us.

And this error is exactly what Paul so lovingly works to dissuade us of. Who better than Paul to assure us of God's love? Paul, who hunted down Christians in order to destroy them. Who could be more foul than that?

And yet God chose him to illustrate that if and when God lays hold of a man, that man will finally see and know and believe not because it is his will to do so, but because it is God's will that he do so.

Knowing that, who can fear anything? Knowing that, who can doubt Christ's sacrifice covers their sins completely?

I didn't always believe this. But since I have, I have read the Scriptures with new eyes, and on every page I find my name, and the names of all those who love God. Why? Because He first loved us.

Blessed assurance. To the RCC it is the "sin of presumption." The Council of Trent actually anathematizes all those who believe in assurance; who believe they have been saved.

But to one who knows whom he has believed, assurance is a gift from God to confirm that our Father is faithful and His promise is true.

Calvin wrote that "the furnishing of the heart with assurance is more difficult than the communication of knowledge to the understanding."

How true we've seen this to be. Some say we blithely think we're saved and that's the end of it. But in reality while this fact may be easy to read in the Bible, it's not so easy to really, truly believe that Christ has done it all for us. Trusting God completely is not in our DNA.

But, by the grace of God, when we do manage to put all our concerns at the foot of the cross, our lives are different and our problems become surmountable because we know and believe and trust in the truth of Paul's words...

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." -- Romans 8:28

No wonder the world tries to dismiss Paul's certainty as being superficial or polemic. He was certain. He trusted completely. Within him there was no doubt.

And lest anyone should say we rely too heavily on "outside sources," anyone who reads the red letters of the Bible knows that Christ spoke in absolutes. His sheep were named from before the foundation of the world. He came to earth for the very purpose of dying in the place of His sheep. And we know for a fact that He will lead His sheep home because He rose from the dead to prove it all true.

So again I offer a few lines from Calvin who realized the temporal world was obscuring the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit. And nothing good can come from that mistake. Only more fear and uncertainty and loss which is the opposite of what Christ gives to His sheep.

"The true conviction which believers have of the word of God, of their own salvation, and of religion in general, does not spring from the judgment of the flesh, or from human and philosophical arguments, but from the sealing of the Spirit, who imparts to their consciences such certainty as to remove all doubt." (Commentary on Ephesians 208)

1,621 posted on 02/08/2008 11:01:36 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; wmfights; blue-duncan; Quix; the_conscience; ...
THE BLESSING OF FULL ASSURANCE
by Charles Spurgeon

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."—1 John 5:13.

John wrote to believers—"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God." It is worthy of note that all the epistles are so written. They are not letters to everybody, they are letters to those who are called to be saints. It ought to strike some of you with awe when you open the Bible and think how large a part of it is not directed at you. You may read it, and God's Holy Spirit may graciously bless it to you, but it is not directed to you. You are reading another man's letter: thank God that you are permitted to read it, but long to be numbered with those to whom it is directed. Thank God much more if any part of it should be used of the Holy Ghost for your salvation. The fact that the Holy Spirit speaks to the churches and to believers in Christ should make you bow the knee and cry to God to put you among the children, that this Book may become your Book from beginning to end, that you may read its precious promises as made to you. This solemn thought may not have struck some of you: let it impress you now.

We do not wonder that certain men do not receive the epistles, for they were not written to them. Why should they cavil at words which are addressed to men of another sort from themselves? Yet we do not marvel, for we knew it would be so. Here is a will, and you begin to read it; but you do not find it interesting: it is full of words and terms which you do not take the trouble to understand, because they have no relation to yourself; but should you, in reading that will, come upon a clause in which an estate is left to you, I warrant you that the nature of the whole document will seem changed to you. You will be anxious now to understand the terms, and to make sure of the clauses, and you will even wish to remember every word of the clause which refers to yourself. O dear friends, may you read the Testament of our Lord Jesus Christ as a testament of love to yourselves, and then you will prize it beyond all the writings of the sages.."

1,622 posted on 02/08/2008 11:16:06 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alamo-Girl; MarkBsnr; kosta50; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Mad Dawg; the_conscience; wmfights; ...
As often as you thank others for their encouragements, let me also thank you for your encouragements! :)

And I have noticed among my Catholic relatives the phenomenon of uncertainty. It seems to result from a sense of separate-from-God responsibility for doing good works and a lingering doubt that anything they could do would be good enough.

Yes, I have noticed this as well and see this as a great difference between Apostolics and many Protestants. Of course there are several people who call themselves Protestants who in fact have a false faith and are in great peril. However, this does not change the Biblical fact that any Christian CAN KNOW FOR SURE if he or she is among God's children. And that is regardless of whatever church one attends, etc.

And thank you so much for the assurance verses. The time of passing of a loved one really is one when the rubber meets the road. When both of my parents passed away a few years ago I really had no idea how I would actually react. I knew what my previous words were, but I had never lived it. Praise be to God that He carried me all the way through, and while there was sadness, there was no despair, or anything approaching it. Such is the power of God and His word through His promises. :)

1,866 posted on 02/11/2008 2:45:08 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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