Yes, on many issues there is no common frame of reference. The speaker frames the position of the other side on the speaker's own terms. That has certainly been done to me, and I freely admit that I have done it to others. I think we can all do better to intellectually understand the other side, but to really "get it" may take something more than any of us have to give. :)
In my exile I have had the salutary experience of watching the posts go by. And it is simply astonishing not only how little our thinking is understood, but how those who misunderstand seem to prefer not understanding the enemy (for such they think we are) to knowing the truth about us.
Well, I think it would be fair to say that goes on from all sides. After all, for almost all of us our faith is the most personal part of our being. It's interesting, when someone from my church witnesses to a non-believer, one of the conversation-starting questions that is suggested to us is to ask the person: "If it was true that most of your views about God were incorrect, would you want to know"? One possible answer would be "No, that's not possible because I know there is no God". But the question is obviously designed to catch a fair and open-minded person who might say "Sure, I would want to know". He might well be receptive to hearing the truth. He still might not become a believer, but we can never ask for more from the person than an open mind, as far as witnessing goes.
Now, if FR Christians asked EACH OTHER the same type of question, I wonder how many would give an answer more like the first answer (above) or the second. :) Probably more so like the first. However, to me this is very understandable. All of us have very positive and definite beliefs IN SOMETHING. Many around here have years and decades invested. I think it is very normal and natural for us to want to protect that investment. (Many non-believers start with "nothing" so they have nothing to protect.) So, maybe every side could slide a little slack to the others because of this.
You can say it as often as you like, and that seems to be pretty often, but I don’t worship our nice icon of Dominic or our tacky statue of Mary. I just don’t. You can say it 10,000 times and it won’t be any truer than it is now.
I appreciate what you're saying and I can MORE than identify with it. :) One of many examples would be the Apostolic claim I have heard 10,000 times that we have 33,000 denominations. It must go back to our respective sides having very different ideas about what "worship" is and what "denominations" are.
Of course that passions and sensitivities have been provoked by and against all sides is no excuse for any of it. I am no less guilty than anyone else. One thing we can all do is just to recognize that the other guy (whom we honestly believe to be wrong) is just as passionate about his position as we are about ours. Everyone has his kryptonite. There are some subjects that really do make me angry, while at the same time those same subjects do not particularly provoke others of a like mind to mine. I need to work on getting those subjects down to a minimum, and then eventually eliminating them altogether, by God's grace. I also need to work on recognizing the other guy's sore spots and then try harder not to pour salt in the wound.
My first thought on finishing it was, however,
a memory of my step-dad forcing me to do the other half of a pocket-knife castration of a pig we were raising to sell, as I recall, during my teen years.
The next task was to pour a great deal of salt into the wound . . . which the pig did not greatly appreciate at all . . . but which prolonged his life by cleansing and sealing the wound, hastening healing . . . toward getting fatter . . . for his eventual destiny.
There are a LOT worse things than salt on a wound. Sometimes, it's precisely what the Doc orders whether the patient thinks so, or not.
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Americans have come to the conclusion that we have a right to avoid being offended. That we have a right to all our petty sensibilities, biases and the like. And, under the shredded Constitution, there's been some truth to that.
But that's not true of Christians.
We sold our rights to Christ in exchange for His Blood; His Blood covering; Eternal Life and Joint Heirship with HIM.
HE TOOK on Himself
--our offenses to God;
--our offenses to each other;
--our offenses to God's Creation;
--all our offenses.
To then take the offense back, or up, as our own right and duty to have a chip on our shoulder and huffily rant and rave about how horribly we've been wounded . . . when Christ bore it all . . . is AT LEAST
More than a little askew of God's priorities for us VIRTUALLY all the time.
There was a time when Paul insisted on being let out the front door by day by the officials who put him in prison vs the back door in the middle of the night. There is a time to stand tall and firm OVER WHATEVER PRIORITY GOD IS CALLING US TO STAND TALL AND FIRM OVER.
But most of the time, it's our pride, ego, sensibilities, constructions on reality, biases, pettiness etc. that gets our dander up the most. I think God is rather underwhelmed or worse about such goings on out of our flesh driven junk.
IF GOD IS TRULY OUR ALL IN ALL; OUR HIGH TOWER; OUR DEFENSE; BORE ALL OUR OFFENSES . . . then what do we, 'legally, spiritually-dead-in-the-flesh--alife-IN-HIM' critters--where do we get off getting our dander haughtily up about anything?
If it's negative--we learn from it whatever Holy Spirit would have us learn from it and pass it on up to Jesus for His disposition, handling.
If it's positive--we learn from it whatever Holy Spirit would have us learn from it and pass it on up to Jesus for His disposition, handling.
If it's a mixture--we learn from it whatever Holy Spirit would have us learn from it and pass it on up to Jesus for His disposition, handling.
We have been bought with a Price.
We are either His love slaves, or we aren't.
For Americans unreared or without the experience of living in an Asian or other culture where serf/master mentalities are much closer to our era than in the USA . . . I think we have lost something of the AUTHORITY of GOD ALMIGHTY.
Scripture says even slaves are to work cheerfully--not just for good masters but for horrible masters AS UNTO THE LORD.
Doesn't sound like a part of the bylaws of the United Auto Workers or Carpenters Unions, to me.
Imagine the Roman Master who's wife or mistress or best buddy gets assaulted by a vigorous protest from a slave for a perceived/projected attitude of the wife/mistress/best buddy toward the slave. I'm sure the Roman master would have been real sympathetic to the slave's opinion about the slave's wounded ego, sensibilities or whatever. . . . NOT!
Jesus even said to Peter, IIRC, WHAT IS THAT TO YOU, YOU--FOLLOW ME! [end of issue. end of story].
No, I'm not saying all Christians in all circumstances are to roll over and play dead. There's a time to stand tall with a fierce response to unmitigated UNBiblical destructiveness in our sphere of influence. But we do exceedingly well to insure to the best of our abilities that doing so IS part of God's call for us in that situation, at that moment.
Will we miss it? Of course. Will we still act partly out of the flesh and human sensibilties--probably--especially the younger and more inexperienced we are in fiery furnaces and long dark nights of the soul.
But lots of things are not as they appear on the surface on all sides of most issues. The discerning look deeper, prayerfully and with Holy Spirit's wisdom.
The merely reactive don't seem to give a flip about Holy Spirit nor about much else other than their wounded sensibilities and pontifically polished shoulder chips.
All of us are prone most to squealing most about our sacred oxen being gored. Again, the best and only Biblical thing to do with sacred oxen is to sacrifice them on God's Altar. Kill the suckers. Quickly and emphatically--whether the sacred ox is within or without; a habit, belief, 'doctrine,' sensitility, hobby, hobby horse, group, leader, symbol, or whatever.
THEN we are free indeed. Free to walk in Christ's wholeness REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE THROWS AT US ABOUT ANYTHING. We are free to walk in Christ's love and forgiveness toward others WITHOUT STRINGS ATTACHED.
Without demanding that the other person relate to us strictly according to our sensibilities, priorities, sacred cows, hyper-sensitive boundary lines and the like.
If folks have not yet learned to Love their fiercest, most painfully destructive enemies, then I encourage them to ask God to give them, teach them that Love. Just realize it's a bit like praying for patience, humility, brokenness, wisdom, understanding, Christ's empathy--all together. The training program is . . . interesting.
But there's a measure and quality of understanding Christ and His love; of identification with Christ that will not come any other way.
Either we are dead to sin and the world the flesh and the devil in a given area--or we aren't.
And believe me, Christ knows very well now to assist us in CRUCIFYING THE FLESH. He's even well able to manage layers of such training without our explicitly asking for it at a given time on a given issue. After all . . . haven't we given him carte blanche to overhaul us and conform us to His image as we professed that HE IS -->OUR<-- LORD, MASTER, SAVIOR, ALL IN ALL?
Even my enemies do me a favor if they surface a sacred cow and a flesh-driven tendency to squeal inappropriately over inappropriateissues. They alert me to something else needing to go to The Cross. Something else needs more of my flesh to die to. Something else needs more LETTING GO AND LETTING GOD in a given area. Something else needs HIS SERENITY REGARDLESS.
I think far too often for my comfort--any would be far too often--folks seem to assume that my starkest fiercest satire comes out of great personal emotional hostility and the like toward whoever or whatever the target happens to be at the time.
Merifully, that's far from the truth virtually all the time. I don't know how to articulate the capacity to be detached yet intensely involved all at the same time. And, I haven't always been 'there.' But, by His Grace, I've been there more the last 10-15 years than ever before in my life. And it's very freeing.
I don't have a great personal . . . something that's at risk, at stake. I've already been shredded dozens of ways from every angle over and over and over and over. There's few existential, emotional, psychodynamic, even spiritual and philosophical ways I haven't been shredded by others; by circumstances, by relentless demonic forces etc.
So, most of what anyone says to me as an assault, I've virtually always already been there and done that. No great surprise. It may be weary-some in it's repetition or familiarity. But it's not all that novel or devastatingly new.
Yeah, there's still occasionally enough of the REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDERED little country hick, poor white trash, shy, embarrassed, humiliated, aw-shucks-farm boy left lurking here and there to get occasionally pricked or tweaked unnecessarily, unfittingly because he hasn't been perfect enough to insure that 100% of everyone loves him 100% all the time 100% about everything. But he's quickly jerked back in line, most of the time.
But if Jesus in us cannot help us BE EFFECTIVELY LIKE HIM where the rubber meets the road in such matters . . . then there must be something lacking in our relationship with Him because there's no such lack in Him.
And we'd best be learning to put on the whole armor of God and flow in His Grace, Spirit, Life in such matters as the tests are going to get tougher, heavier and more frequent for most of us in the coming months and years. THEN, on-the-job-training will be a hazard. God is offering us many opportunities ongoingly to AVOID BEING OFFENDED.
We'd best learn to practice and practice well.