Blue Duncan: The apostle Paul makes this point with regard to the most astounding miracle story of all, the resurrection: “If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.” (1 Corinthians 15:13-15)
I appreciate your beautiful answer, but you are doing exactly what I said when you responded to it: you are using Paul (scripture) to prove scripture!
I believe that Christ resurrected, but I have no "proof" of that other than my faith.
There are many accounts in the New Testament of Jesus’ appearance after the crucifixion.
Don't you think that someone who was not a believer would have been just a tad bit curious to see the man the whole city of Jerusalem saw tortured and killed on the Cross, walking the earth as if nothing happened? But there are no extra-biblical accounts of something so outrageous and unbelievable as that!
If Jesus was such a "dangerous" element in Israel as the Bible portrays him, don't you think the Sanhendrin would not have freaked out if they found us He is back!? I think so. Yet no one seems to have been perturbed for the entire 40 days that He was appearing before people to write about it!
This "creed” is especially significant for its date. It occurs in a letter written in the early 50s but it dates to a very few years after Jesus’ death
How is that?
This material is traditional and pre-Pauline is evident from the technical terms delivered and received, the parallelism and somewhat stylized content, the proper names of Cephas and James...
Paul uses Peter's name as Cephas in Gal 2:11, but in 2:7 he calls Peter Petros.
Concerning the date of this creed, critical scholars almost always agree that it has an early origin, usually placing it in the AD. 30s
Are you talking about the so-called Passion-Naratives? I don't buy into their date. The next closest source would be the (in)famous "Q", and that one is missing as well.
For Paul, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a vital event
For all of Christianity!
That women were the first witnesses must be true; there would be no other reason for including the detail.
That's very likely, but the empty tomb doesn't prove He resurrected. Besides, the accounts between the four authors of the Gospels differ so much when it comes to empty tomb, it is almost impossible to decide who to believe
If the resurrection was not true and the bible writers were just writing fiction or myths it would have been disproved long before Paul wrote.
The fact that the whole world did not flock to become Christian is proof enough to challenge any Christian's conviction! What would it take, one might ask! It is a real miracle that so many believe based on nothing but blind faith that the Gospels proclaim the truth!
First, if the disciples stole the body. or they paid the soldiers guarding the tomb to say that the disciples had whisked the body away (Matthew 28:11-15) then the grave clothes would have been disturbed
You are writing about it as if it were a news account. We really don't know what was there, since neither of the authors who write about it were there to witness it. In fact, Paul, Luke and Mark never knew Christ personally, while he was on earth.
If the Gospel accounts are correct, and He did say on the Cross "It's accomplished" (or finished, done), then no further revelation was necessary. If Christ was not the fullness of revelation, then He is not the apex.
Why would He need Paul to carry on His message, as if He left something behind undone, or as if His sacrifice on the Cross was not enough, or His ministry insufficient?
Obviously, Paul was necessary (as far as the Church was concerned!) to sell Judaism to the Greeks to put it bluntly, lest the whole movemnt die out! That's because the Jews did not buy into it, even though the NT speaks of "multitudes" of jesus' followers.
Christ had His own personal pick of the "called ones?" and their mission was with the 12 truibes of Israel, not the gentiles. No one ever spoke of evangelizing the Gentiles, until the Church started dying in Israel. And why would there be another Revelation (to "John"), as if God's revelation was not completed and fulfilled with Christ?
“If Jesus was such a “dangerous” element in Israel as the Bible portrays him, don’t you think the Sanhendrin would not have freaked out if they found us He is back!? I think so. Yet no one seems to have been perturbed for the entire 40 days that He was appearing before people to write about it!”
Jesus answered that before he died.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
This is the effect of the empty tomb on those that witnessed it and yet didn’t believe.
Matt. 28:11-15 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done. And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers, Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. And if this come to the governor’s ears, we will persuade him, and secure you. So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
In addition some now say:
Jesus was in a swoon and recovered and rolled the door stone away while the soldiers slept.
His disciples were “victims of hysterical delusions”.
Even the disciples were skeptical of the resurrection and it did not occur to them Jesus would be raised from the dead until after their understanding was opened by the Holy spirit.
John 20:24-29, But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
“Are you talking about the so-called Passion-Naratives? I don’t buy into their date. The next closest source would be the (in)famous “Q”, and that one is missing as well”
No, not the Passion Narrative, but what critical historians like Pannenberg called an ancient early church “creed” formulated just after the resurrection and recited during the liturgy in the early church. It is thought that Paul learned it on his first trip to the Jerusalem Church.
The “Q” document has never been found nor has there any proof of it in any church early church documents. It arose in the 19th century out of the critical school to make sense of the similarities in the Gospels. It was an invention of skeptical scholars.
“You are writing about it as if it were a news account.”
How are the accounts any different than what you read in the newspapers or news magazines today? They are either eyewitness accounts, like Matthew, John and perhaps Mark since there is some speculation that he was the boy who ran away without his clothes in the garden, or from unnamed sources who corroborate the eye witnesses accounts as reported by Luke and Paul.