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To: Alamo-Girl
Yours is a wonderful post.

I cannot imagine God not remembering my sins, in the sense of knowing that they happened. I can hope and believe that he does not remember them against me. A different thing altogether.

I would like to know your position on pacifism and the work of people in the armed forces, law enforcement, or other security work which involves the high likelihood of aggressive and possibly lethal action.

Mine is that such work is undertaken at great personal risk, both spiritual and physical. It is hard to draw a gun on someone or to get in a gang fight with someone in the afternoon and then to pray for him at night.

On the other hand, the world is maybe a little but safer because some of us are willing to do that. The comparative luxury of being able to find a place far from strife is usually at least partially the work of those who go to the front and set up shop there.

Here's a situation: A fellow had been having sexual intercourse with his daughters for years (both daughters say so) Should the daughters and mother and community forgive and forget? Is it wrong to set up a response that is satisfactory to the family (except for the guy himself) line up a hospital bed, and everything else and then go in alone to tell the guy that his behavior is known and that he can choose between jail and contumely on the one hand or an immediate commitment to a mental health facility on the other -- and the guy is probably armed. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of encouragement here for Catholic bishops "forgiving and forgetting" (if that's indeed what they did) their abusive clergy. Should they have? Which protects "the little ones"? Which, over the long therm is better for the abusers?

Is it wrong to enter a room with an armed drunk and spousal abuser who is talking about suicide and about taking a few people with him and trying to talk him out of it and into treatment? Better to forgive and forget?

A guy, high on who knows what, assaults three deputies. Should the fourth deputy forgive and forget, or should he join the scrum and tussle with the guy until he's "cuffed and stuffed" and THEN try to calm him down and ease his physical and emotional pain, while keeping him from doing any further damage to himself or to the other deputies.

Judgment is for God, and I eagerly leave him to it. I want nothing to do with it.

The guy who came after me with a club when I was out of uniform, and on whom I drew my weapon, that same guy I prayed for every day for a month and about monthly ever since. But I'm glad I drew my weapon and I think I would have been right to shoot him had he gotten within the lethal zone. That guy was all about depriving my wife and kid of the alleged but dubious pleasure of my company, and I don't think I should just forgive and forget. I should stop the guy, THEN forgive and forget.

AND, as I say, I think those for whom what you might call "high-impact judgment calls" are a rarity owe some gratitude to those who, eyes open to the physical and spiritual risk, move to place themselves between the source of danger and the comparatively innocent, try to face and to understand the danger, and then try to settle things down.

A woman all for peace and forgiveness refuses her essential role in an "intervention". Within a couple of years, the subject of the intervention does jail time, and ends up partially responsible for his mother's death. (Think about double doses of coumadin some time.) I'm going to go with the intervention, undertaken with fear, trembling, prayer, and humility, but also with resolution and a determination to succeed. Since I think any good work I might have done was a gift from God and nothing to do with anything about me, I confidently commit myself to Him and sally forth, fully prepared to be, once again, a fool and a goat. Somebody has to say, "Here am I, send me."

Oh wow, I'm gonna take some heat for this.

1,202 posted on 02/04/2008 11:04:02 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Since I think any good work I might have done was a gift from God and nothing to do with anything about me, I confidently commit myself to Him and sally forth, fully prepared to be, once again, a fool and a goat. Somebody has to say, “Here am I, send me.”

= =

I feel the same way . . . at least exceedingly similarly.


1,205 posted on 02/04/2008 11:32:21 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Mad Dawg; Quix
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements and for your questions on the various scenarios!

I would like to know your position on pacifism and the work of people in the armed forces, law enforcement, or other security work which involves the high likelihood of aggressive and possibly lethal action.

Mine is that such work is undertaken at great personal risk, both spiritual and physical. It is hard to draw a gun on someone or to get in a gang fight with someone in the afternoon and then to pray for him at night.

Spiritual and physical risk, indeed.

David comes to mind. He was a man after God’s own heart, but he was also bloody – mostly according to God’s will, e.g. Goliath, but sometimes not, e.g. Uriah. His bloodiness cost him dearly because it prevented him from worshipping God according to his own mind.

And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God: But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight. – I Chronicles 22:7-8

Joshua, too, was a man chosen of God to execute His judgments which were oftentimes bloody, e.g. Ai. Some like David, Joshua, Caleb and Gideon are called of God to do a bloody job.

But as always, the one and only Great Commandment applies. We must love God surpassingly above all else. His name, His will, His kingdom - that is what matters.

In other words, if God appoints a man to a bloody job, the mission is God’s, the power is God’s and the glory is God’s.

Man gets into trouble when acts of his own will. And when that happens, the blood is on his own hands.

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. – Genesis 9:6

When a man enters the military or law enforcement, he takes a sacred oath. If he does not consider the oath sacred or if he breaks that oath – and most especially if he does not love God surpassingly above all else - he is in deep spiritual peril on top of taking physical risks.

We should always remember - whether actual wars or gang wars or even verbal wars - it is not our might or power, but His Spirit that is effective to accomplish His will.

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. – Zechariah 4:6

Truly, the one Great Commandment applies to all the examples you give. God’s will is against incest and for children. He commands a husband to love his wife. He permits nations for the good of the people. To love God, when one sees crimes happen, he must report them and/or intervene.

None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover [their] nakedness: I [am] the LORD. – Leviticus 18:6

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. – Matthew 18:10

So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: - Ephesians 5:28-29

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. – 2 Peter 2:13-14

But he must also forgive because as you say, judgment is God’s not ours.

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. – Romans 12:19

Your testimony here delights my spirit:

Since I think any good work I might have done was a gift from God and nothing to do with anything about me, I confidently commit myself to Him and sally forth, fully prepared to be, once again, a fool and a goat. Somebody has to say, "Here am I, send me."

Praise God!!!

1,216 posted on 02/04/2008 12:45:11 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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