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To: Alamo-Girl; Quix
I'll just say again:

I have seen spousal and child abuse, including child sexual abuse, and "substance abuse" AND the related abuse of persons concealed and prolonged until the effects are life-altering to the point of life-destroying.

And the Perps said longest and loudest, "Let's let bygones be bygones," as their targets and victims wilted and languished around them.

I note the incredible asymmetry here. We are told repeatedly, with a book jacket posted, that our devotions and belief are pathological. No one actually develops the concept, it seems that all that it required is to question the health of our motives for our practices.

I see no rebuke from you for that, and Quix is one of those who keeps it going.

And now that I am naming what I see, and others are saying they see it to, now I am cautioned against cherishing anger and being judgmental?

Is being aware that one is observing victimization worse than victimizing folks? IS that the contention here -- that it is better to abuse than for the abused to know that they are being abused and to point it out?

One of the reasons abuse is so dreadful is precisely that it tempts the victim to cherishing anger and all the things you say. Lewis writes well about this in his book on the Psalms. So that IS a fight I must fight, and a plea for protection I must make, and it's why I pray for abusers and the enemies of the Church at almost every opportunity.

But the fact that some are tempted, and succumb, to the sins you mention does not in itself prohibit pointing out the sins of the victimizers. Here we have some who have been repeatedly asked NOT to provoke and who finally say provocation is a purpose of theirs. And when this is noted, suddenly it's all wrong for the person who is provoked to notice and say so, while those who proudly provoke are comforted and defended?

Finally, distinguo: Forgiving is one thing. Observing is another. One can observe and forgive at the same time. Some people would prefer not to be either observed nor forgiven. Often, for such people, "Forgiveness" is taken to be permission and even tacit approval. If you note but neither give permission nor approval, you are then called unforgiving.

1,160 posted on 02/04/2008 5:12:20 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; Marysecretary
Thank you for your reply!

But the fact that some are tempted, and succumb, to the sins you mention does not in itself prohibit pointing out the sins of the victimizers. Here we have some who have been repeatedly asked NOT to provoke and who finally say provocation is a purpose of theirs. And when this is noted, suddenly it's all wrong for the person who is provoked to notice and say so, while those who proudly provoke are comforted and defended?

As anyone can see from my ten years of posting history here, I try to stay away from flame wars – whether blazing or smoldering.

And when it comes to this forum, or any thread of theological interest among the brethren, I’m very selective about the issues on which I will engage. That is God's will for us.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. - Titus 3:9

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. – 2 Timothy 2:23-26

Concerning Dr. Eckleburg’s post and the sentence I excerpted, forgiveness is Spiritually vital and therefore, I wanted to respond.

My reply was essentially that forgiveness is God’s will for us - and He will forgive us precisely the same way we forgive others - and if we do not forgive, He will turn a deaf ear to our prayers.

One can observe and forgive at the same time.

If this is the manner whereby a Christian chooses to forgive, then God will forgive him in the same way (Lord's Prayer.) Which is to say, his own sins will remain in God’s mind.

Personally, I cannot afford to have my sins in God's mind. Therefore, I choose instead to forgive and forget – asking for the Spirit’s help in the forgetting department, trusting Him and being confident that I have the same kind of forgiveness from God:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin. – Hebrews 10:12-18

When beings on earth or in heaven – whether here on the forum or like Satan with Job (Job 1) and Peter (Luke 22:31) – are railing against me, I want to be completely empty handed and mute, like Christ was before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7)

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

Thereby, I am certain of God's mercy towards me and that He will hear and honor my prayers. (Mark 11:24-26)

As to provocative behavior per se among those advocating the Gospel of Jesus Christ, regardless of who is doing it, I submit that we should always have this mind:

Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. - Philippians 1:15-18

If it not always “about” God – if we don’t love Him surpassingly above all else, then we are blowing the one and only Great Commandment.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. – Matthew 22:37-38

To God be the glory!

1,184 posted on 02/04/2008 8:59:16 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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