Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[MarkBsnr]

Harley, Harley, Harley.

Do you really know so little of St. Augustine? He called for greater veneration of the Virgin Mary for the Church faithful. And we have over 100 panegyrics written by him for the saints.

It is rather sad that the education of our Protestant brethren does not extend beyond the immediate past. I’d really like you guys to be able to understand the Church and its development.

[HarleyD]

Mark has never said that one is saved by one’s works. But Mark does say that one must have works. ...Sorry to burst the bubble.

And who's works are those?

Our works are a natural result of our relationship with Christ. They are not some we produce but something that He produces through us. He is the vine. We are the branches. Without Him we can do nothing. Would you disagree?

[HarleyD]

I understand Augustine having read a great many of his works. Like you, I reserve the right to pick and choose which parts of Augustine to appreciate and which to discard. I tend to favor those writings where Augustine clearly ties his thoughts back to scripture.

[r9etb]

I don’t mind people who believe the Bible. I do mind people who use the term “Bible-believing” as a means of differentiating themselves from, say, Catholics. As has happened on this thread.

[MarkBsnr]

The Scots were barbarians scarcely differentiable from the Normans and the Danes that they battled.

The hardscrabble life for the many and the soft life of the nobles found fertile soil for the theology of Calvin and Knox.

[HarleyD]

It becomes more and more fascinating. At what point did this blessed (for the Reformation) event happen?

I've traced it back to around 600AD when the Pope allowed both Augustine's and Cassian's theologies to coexist in the Church.

HD-Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God’s gift

MarkBsnr-Google is not my friend in trying to track this down. Would you please provide a website for me to go to?

"...except that it is impossible to withstand the most manifest divine testimony, by which faith, whence piety takes its beginning, is shown also to be the gift of God: such as is that testimony that "God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith;" [Rom. 12.3]-Augustine

I'm sure you can look up Romans 12 without a Google.

[MarkBsnr]

God does predestine some to heaven; he predestines none to hell. There is no Scripture that supports that contention.

We do not gainsay this from Augustine. We know and accept it. It is a pity that the Reformed do not understand that Augustine was a pure Catholic when he died. It’s okay to make that crossing even now.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I tend to favor those writings where Augustine clearly ties his thoughts back to scripture.

Amen, Harley. Your Augustine scholarship is always appreciated.

And you seem to favor Augustine's later writings. Augustine certainly matured later than a lot of other Christians and lived a pretty wild life until he settled down to the truth which grew in him year by year. His later writings show his real beliefs and his firm and confident faith in God's perfect purpose throughout all of life.

"The grace of God does not find men fit to be elected, but makes them so..."

"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those that knock, but also to cause them to knock and ask."

Sounds like Augustine acknowledges God's sovereignty above all else.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Scots were barbarians

lol. That same "barbarian" ethos created this country.

In fact, William Wallace's last word was not "Freedom," as the film would have us believe.

Braveheart's last word was "Scotland!"

If that's "barbarian," may I have some more, please?

[r9etb]

How interesting that you would agree with Mark that we are saved by our works. I would suggest the laundry list of scriptures presented are taken completely out of context. But, then again, I believe people are saved by the faith that comes from God.

Then unless you're God ... why are you wasting all this time saying the same things, thread after thread, trying to save folks through your works? What, precisely, is the point of your posting?

As it happens, Harley, you would have to ignore a number of Jesus' own comments concerning "works," and the salvific effects thereof. For example, Jesus says salvation requires certain works: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) That's salvation by works: I must believe; and I must be baptized. The consequences of my not doing those things is condemnation.

And on the other side, we have Jesus saying "With man this [salvation] is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matt. 19:26)

So unless Jesus was talking out of both sides of his mouth, you've got a problem. God's sovereign, we're responsible. Both backed by Scripture. What's in the middle ... it's a mystery.

To simply ignore what Jesus said in service of your own narrow (and logically pointless) theology is not a very impressive religion. In fact, it's downright silly to reject what Scripture plainly says, because you're afraid that it somehow makes God "less sovereign" if we have the ability to exercise any sort of free choice in our salvation.

In fact, if we're going to hold "idol-worshipers" up to scorn, perhaps we should reserve our scorn for "idol-worshipers" who place the purity of their ideology above all else.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

lol.

[kosta50]

Such as Paul not leaning toward Gnosticism, and the correct understanding of the Filioque

We don't dispute the correct understanding of the Filioque. Our own fathers express the same concept. However, it does not belong in the Creed because it does not express clearly that—as far as His existence is concerned—the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father.

The Catholics know that; they do not profess double origin. But I wouldn't put it past the Protestants.

The second reason the Filioque does not belong in the Creed is because it is an unatuhorized change the Fathers knew to probibit precisely because such alterations lead to heresy.

Now, after more than a thousand years of using the Filioque in their Creed, the Catholics are unlikely to just drop it, just as Christains are unlikely to expunge those parts of the bible we know were added at a later date. Part of it is pride, and a large part of it is that no religius group will or can ever admit to being wrong and sruvive.

[HarleyD]

God does predestine some to heaven; he predestines none to hell. There is no Scripture that supports that contention.

Not according to Augustine.

Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,—not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." [John 15.16.] For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt. Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, "As He hath chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world"? [Eph. 1.4.] And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;" when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated.

Please note this VERY IMPORTANT POINT of Augustine; we are not elected BECAUSE we believe, we are elected so that WE MAY believe. We are God's workmanship and every Christian that God creates bears testimony to His truth. God substains our belief in Him. Those who He foreknew, He predestined, and those who He predestined He justified, and those who He justified...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

why are you wasting all this time saying the same things, thread after thread, trying to save folks through your works?

You think to preach the Gospel is to waste time? You think to preach the Gospel is work?

It's only work if you expect to get rewarded for it.

Bible-believing Christians, however, know it is our God-given duty to preach the truth of Christ risen as Christ instructs and the Holy Spirit enables.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." -- Luke 17:10

[kosta50]

I've traced it back to around 600AD when the Pope allowed both Augustine's and Cassian's theologies to coexist in the Church

Did any Ecumenical Council find +John Cassian to be a heretic? Obviously, the Pope considered these theologies as theologoumenna and not dogma.

Both saints are venerated in the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

[kosta50]

How interesting that you would agree with Mark that we are saved by our works

And what are the Beatitudes? Jesus did not preach 'saved by grace alone.' That would be the 'other' Reformed God—Deformed Paul.

[blue-duncan]

“barbarian,”

Only a “barbarian” could get away with wearing a kilt, except in the winter on cold metal chairs.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father. The Catholics know that; they do not profess double origin. But I wouldn't put it past the Protestants.

Oh, my, Kosta, you've told us you do not represent mainline Orthodoxy, and now I'm pretty sure you don't represent Roman Catholicism and its understanding of the Filioque.

Check out New Advent on the Filioque.

Orthodoxy is the odd-man out in this regard.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Please note this VERY IMPORTANT POINT of Augustine; we are not elected BECAUSE we believe, we are elected so that WE MAY believe. We are God's workmanship and every Christian that God creates bears testimony to His truth. God substains our belief in Him.

AMEN!

[kosta50]

Oh please -- these backhanded slaps at scripture by implying that Paul might have been a gnostic are too much. Since Luke's Gospel was a favorite of Marcion's, then he too must have been a gnostic or had gnostic followers according to your reasoning. The same could be said of all the writers of scripture that the gnostics quoted

Marcion specifically considered Paul's Epistles as the 'canon.' If he had affinity for Luke, it's because of Luke's affinity for Paul.