Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
What was your point? Duplicity?
And "high inquisitor" is an interesting term, dontcha think?
All you've offered is scathing criticism of Protestants. Period. Yet no one would be wondering about your church affiliation if you hadn't asserted many many many times that you "aren't a Catholic," but that you think all the Reformers and most Protestants are wrong to disagree with Rome about anything.
I've been asked for my church affiliation and I've given it. I'm a Presbyterian.
So for the record, you're refusing to tell any of us what denomination you belong to or what type of "Protestant" church you attend?
Thanks, I'm here every Wednesday.
A drunk that smelled like a brewery got on a bus one day. He sat down next to a priest. The drunk's shirt was stained, his face was full of bright red lipstick and he had a half-empty bottle of wine sticking out of his pocket. He opened his newspaper and started reading. A couple minutes later, he asked the priest, "Father, what causes arthritis?"
"Mister, it's caused by loose living, being with cheap, wicked women, too much alcohol, and contempt for your fellow man," the priest replied.
"Imagine that," the drunk muttered. He returned to reading his paper.
The priest, thinking about what he had said, turned to the man and apologized: "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come on so strong. How long have you had arthritis?"
"I don't have arthritis, Father," the drunk said, "but I just read in the paper that the Pope does."
You keep telling us that but you never give evidence or support for your dissension other than...you choose not to agree with us and our "evil theologies."
You've been given massive amounts of Scripture showing you what justification means and how the RCC falls so very short of correctly understanding that Christ alone paid for our sins; Christ alone redeems us; Christ alone acquits the fallen sinner -- all due to Christ's work on the cross alone.
You disagree, but we've yet to be shown why.
Mark, wasn't it you who had (has) trouble telling us what the Gospel is?
Your method of debate is simply to intone: "wrong."
John 17: Jesus is referring to the Apostles. Wrong.
LOL. I don't have time to go through all of your errors, but this one is easy since we've been over it before and we've noted that the RC Bible must not include John 17:20 --
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word"
Go back to the Bible and read it, Mark. It's all there and you're missing it.
I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say in this post, but then, a lot of your comments appear cryptic and thus pointless.
Yes, apparently "some who would call themselves Protestants" are easily persuaded by a chummy grin.
For anyone with children, renting and watching the DVD, "Deliver Us From Evil" is the prudent thing to do.
Amen!
And that young soldier's preaching of the Good News of the Gospel has continued to this day as you relate his story to our waiting ears.
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20
Amen. A perfect description of sanctification.
lol.
Actually, IF the people of Mexico were indeed paying honor to the PERSON of the image, then there would be no reason to crawl for blocks on their hands and knees. All they would have to do is to pray to the virgin in the quietness of their room. I'm sure they have those little statues of Mary, or at the very least, those little tiny cards adorned with her picture. The very fact that people are willing to crawl for blocks to venerate an image when they can do it in their homes is a blatant indication of idolatry.
This isn't any different than the Baal priest during Elijah's time, flaying themselves before the altar hoping for a miracle from Baal. One would have to ask if the Lady of Guadalupe is asleep?
BTW, I would LOVE to get a chance to see the actual tilma.
Why?
I sincerely doubt the Holy Spirit would have "guided" pedophiles into the Church to cause multi-billion dollar costs. I also sincerely doubt the Holy Spirit would have "guided" the sales of indulgences only to rescind them 100 years later.
The Holy Spirit's job is to guide believers to all truth. Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit until our day of redemption. He is not here as some quasi-force to guide a nebulous Church that has shown they make poor decisions from time to time at best. He is real and personal to each believer.
Well, the Church's teachings on the Holy Spirit is a big one. For it to say, "The Holy Spirit is guiding us-not anyone else." is a bit cultish in my mind. However, I doubt if the Vatican would allow themselves to be corrected in this teaching.
MarkBsnr-We never said that.
Please refer back to post #438
We said that the Reformed theology is wrong and it is based upon a misunderstanding of Scripture entirely, but mostly a misunderstanding of Paul.
Those who know me and have been here for some time knows that I don't take my Reformed theology from the Reformers; I take it from Augustine. A careful reading of scriptures and an openess of heart confirms everything the Reformers state.
I'll ask you my standard two questions that Augustine was asked that led him to this truth.
Who gave you your faith?
Perhaps I should not have used them as stand alones, I will grant you that. However the point is that God CHOOSES specific people for specific purposes all throughout the Bible. Why would such a pattern apply EXCEPT for the most important thing of all? That makes no sense. God chooses who will perform the tasks He wants done. One of those tasks is believing itself.
The verses from Romans do not specify that only the elect are going to Heaven. And neither do the verses from Mark and John.
That's a curious read. Who else do you suppose is going to Heaven besides the elect? I could see a far stretched reading of Romans and Mark being a subset, but not of John:
John 1:12-13 : 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV
This specifically says "as many", not "more" or "less" or "some of" or some other unequal.
You have given all that you can in stating what the Reformed position is versus the reality of Scripture. But that dog don’t hunt.
Thank you for the compliment, but it's been no struggle at all. The dog is always hunting for an even deeper understanding based on a solidly scriptural framework. :)
If you’d like, I could show you where the Reformed position has gone wrong (starting with Genesis).
Sure, I would be happy to discuss it.
Give up, give in and come back to God, my friend. Your compatriots are leading you down the garden path.
All believers must give up, give in, and come to God. But for me, I'm afraid there is no "back". :) The God I know now is the same and only one I have ever known. I just know a lot more about Him now than I did before, and I am much closer to Him now. And THAT is in large part due to my compatriots, whom I thank God for every day. They have given me great insights into how the totality of scripture works together to reveal one coherent message, just as you spoke of earlier. They have truly been God's blessing to me.
I see. Do you further claim that, for example, that 2 Chronicles 34 is equally as important and instructive as Matthew 5?
Yes and No. It depends on how we measure what "important and instructive" is. If all that is true is important and instructive, which is a perfectly good way to look at it, then yes, they are equal. OTOH, many people think that teachings about salvation and perseverance, sanctification etc., or anything from the mouth of Jesus are comparatively "more" important to them. I also have no problem with that view. I have said before that if I could only take 5 books of the Bible to a desert island, then my personal preference would be that Matthew would probably be one of them. So, in that sense they are not "equal" subjectively to me.
Ultimately, both 2 Chron. 34 AND Matt. 5 are absolutely God's word and God's truth. They both reveal God to us. Therefore, neither is "better" than the other in terms of truth or worth.
Please forgive this bizarre comparison, but it fits so well, I can't resist. :) From the movie Kill Bill 2:
Elle Driver: Bill tells me you had a Hanzo sword once.
Budd: Yeah.
Elle Driver: [examining the Bride's sword] How does this one compare to that one?
Budd: If you're gonna compare a Hanzo sword, you compare it to every other sword ever made... that wasn't made by Hattori Hanzo.
That is really what I think about trying to compare the worth or importance of scriptures! :)
We consider Paul to be pretty well on a par with Peter as the greatest of the Apostles, with all the others as lessers.
If you're right, then Paul and Peter must be shoe-shine boys in Heaven: :)
Mark 9:33-35 : 33 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" 34 But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."
This is why I try to stay away from trying to "rank" the Apostles. :)
The parish I grew up in is called Sts. Peter and Paul. The Reformers tried to abscond with Paul and with St. Augustine by misinterpreting them both.
Abscond? We just look at what Paul actually says. While interpretations are needed and made by both sides at different times, the NUMBER of times Paul's plain meaning is taken is FAR greater in Reformed theology. I have often felt sorry for poor Paul when I look at the beatings his words have to take to be shaped into conformity with Tradition. :) They just don't match. Paul would have to be the most cryptic writer in the history of literature for his writings to agree with Church teachings.
As to Augustine, you must have seen some of Harley's posts concerning Augustine's retractions, when they were, and what he was retracting. As I understand it, in many cases, Augustine's "final" answers were what Calvin and Luther were quoting from in support of their writings.
It isn't salvation through Jesus Christ and faith in God, it is salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
That is why our differences aren't cosmic, they are essential in determining who truly is a Christian.
I can’t remember if I am the Orthodoxer you were speaking with, but I think I agree with whoever it was who spoke to you assuming they were making this rule to apply in Orthodox countries. I will say that unlike many Orthodox, I really don’t have any problem with the Latin Church baptizing people in Orthodox lands but then again, I have no doubts at all about the validity or efficacy of Latin sacraments or orders.
I am owing of an explanation. In my post I was actually referring to our mutual friend from a recent thread. I wanted to tell this story, but given the current situation regarding pinging that I have with him, I wasn't sure what to do. So, I decided to ping you for ombudsman purposes, to make sure I was being fair to both him and to Orthodoxy in general. :)
Now, if we stipulate that the rule applies to Orthodox countries, then how can you say that a person is better off lost than to come to at least a "separated" (in the eyes of the Church) Christian faith? If the Church could or did reach everybody, then we wouldn't be there. Our missionaries do not hang around the outside doors of Orthodox Churches on Sunday mornings waiting to prey on those coming out from services. We reach out to the truly lost, those who have nothing in their lives at that moment. I'm just surprised at any attitude that says: "better to rot in hell than to be Protestant". :)
“I don’t have arthritis, Father,” the drunk said, “but I just read in the paper that the Pope does.”
LOL! Thanks for a funny start to my Thursday. BTW, I found a wonderful examination of the RCC claim that the Apostle Peter was the first pope. Will read more and get back.
“As you mature in your Christian walk the desire grows to do good things and the desire to do bad things diminishes. It is the work of the Holy Spirit in us.”
I would add that as we mature in Christ, we grow to see our own sin more and hate it all the more, being broken over what we have held dear that is repugnant in the eyes of the Lord who bought us with His life.
Let all God’s children praise Him for His wonderful mercy and finished work at Calvary!
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