Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
What??? :) Here is the passage we know so well:
Eph 2:8-9 : 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Is your argument, based on this, REALLY that works do not produce grace BUT works DO produce faith??? By the standards of your interpretation, I can claim the truth that God saves every third person with a "W" in his name. My evidence? The Bible says nothing, EXPLICITLY, against it. :)
Individual Church Fathers never claimed that, FK. +Gregory of Nyssa, a student of Origen, for example, taught for a while Origen's universal salvation. +Augustine of Hippo taught that God created the world at once (based on his faulty understanding of Greek); his teaching on the original never became Church dogma (it was accepted in the west, but not in the entire Church).
Thus, not everything the Fathers wrote became doctrine. Only those things the whole church agreed were orthodox became official Church teaching, meaning that they reflect and are in agreement with the Holy Tradition, as passed on from Christ to the Apostles. Not that they are the words of God.
The Ecumenical Councils, which are part of the Holy Tradition, are believed to be guided by the Holy Spirit and their decisions are believed to be infallible based on the biblical promise that the Church will not fail, and not that God speaks through the bishops at the Council.
We are not talking Harry Potter here, okay?
If any other group gets together and comes up with "dogma" or "doctrine", then it has less weight, but when the Church Fathers did it (with others of the hierarchy), you claim it was from God.
What "other group?" Heretics? Look, the Church allowed theological opinions, but there are limits. Just as there are some things your tradition will not allow and still consider someone a Baptist. Those other groups as you call them taught things that are not in conformity with what the belief concerning the Holy Trinity and Christ.
When they teach that God is not Triune, when they teach that Christ is a "lesser" God then the Father, when they teach that Christ is no God at all, etc., you better believe the Church will consider "less" and un-orthodox, heretical.
This is the twisted logic that betrays lack of authority, FK! If I make extraordinary claims I better have extraordinary evidence to prove my claims. What is your extraordinary evidence other than your a priori claim that it is from God? It's your faith! And that's no proof to anyone but you.
We have already established that attempting to "prove" anything concerning God's word to you is pointless
If you only offer your faith as any "proof," that's correct. I mean, you are offering your faith as the highest authority!
In addition, whatever your higher-than-the-Bible authority is that tells you that 1 Peter was written after Peter died is unknown to me. My particular Bible estimates that 1 Peter was written around 63-64 A.D.
The historical content of 1 Peter doesn't match the time, FK. Sorry. There were no exiles in those areas at his time (and I know he wasn't talking about those who may have settled other lands after the Babylonian exile, 500 years earlier! For one, they were not Christians!).
Also, curiously, 1 Peter never speaks of +Peter's personal experience with Christ, which should have been stronger than that of other disciples, yet all it talks about is suffering Christ (very Pauline).
And if Silas wrote the book (another wild theory which holds no water), then it was the teaching of +Paul and not +Peter who is behind 1 Peter, as is the book of Acts, since +Luke was merely following +Paul.
If anything, it was +Mark who followed +Peter, and it would have been more likely that +Mark, whose Greek was very crude, would have written 1 Peter instead of the sophisticated Greek of the current book.
And even if it were Silas who wrote it, it was not +Peter who did. +Peter and +Paul were not even physically close and their disagreement is well documented and remained unsettled among Christians for a long time, despite attempts in the book of Acts to smooth things over.
So, no matter how you turn it around, it the idea that it was +Peter who authored it holds very little water.
I guess you also claim the dinosaurs didn't exist. :)
We could also say that accepting everything that's in the Bible as an truth without any evidence to support it (other than your faith) opens up a can of worms where individual writers add or erase or say whatever they want to support their own agenda.
That is so meideval, as well as un-orthodox. In your formula evil is part of God's creation because it happens.
Yes and no. "That" is actually a universal pronoun (among other grammatical forms) that applies to persons as well as things. "Who" is more specific to persons.
And, conversely, it doesn't mean it is prima facie evidence that it is of God! Remember, the party that makes the claim must provide the evidence (the more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence is required). Doubt is justified until proof is established.
You just need the presupposition that there is an intelligent CREATOR
There you have it! The a priori, blind faith, initial step. From there on, we can "explain" everything. That's positively medieval, FK. :)
The presupposition is that there is God and now we proceed to prove the presupposition by all means. That's not how one gets to the truth, FK. The cause is established by working retroactively towards the cause, based on available evidence.
Sure, we can make a reasonable assumption that if we see a house there must be a builder who built it and an architect who designed it. We can do the same thing about the Creation. But we don't know anything about either, except that something HAD to cause this to happen. As to who or what or how is unknown.
We agree on that. The rest is filled with human fancy.
You appear frustrated if things cannot be explained without God.
I am frustrated with those who attempt to explain everything through God. Saying the "cause is God" is not an explanation FK. If I scratch my head, is that also from God? Is God causing my head to itch? And if so, where is the poof?
Works can strengthen faith, absolutely. That is the meaning of the Unprofitable Servant parable, Luke 17.
The text in Ephesians says that grace is the gift of God and not a product of works, so the glory of it is not ours. Faith is the instrument by which we receive grace. Works is something we are to "walkk in". Your translation, not surprisingly, obfuscates this passage.
8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Douay)8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJ)
8. ti gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos kai touto ouk ex ymon theou to doron 9. ouk ex ergon ina me tis kauchesitai...
Note that "of yourselves" (ex ymon) and "of works" (ex ergon) are in the same grammatical case, and both refer to grace, which is controlled by "by" (gar). Your translation made grace and works appear in parallel and controlled by "by", while separating "yourself" and "God" by making these two nouns controlled by different prepositions, contrary to the original grammar.
But [according to the Protestant/Baptist theology] it doesn't affect the outcome, FK! It's pointless. It's like having to take continuing education courses to keep your license current, even though you can't lose your license if you don't!
Well, actually we DO have to take CLEs (unless we have an exemption) in order to keep our licenses. You may have a decent analogy there. :) While the license was fully granted, it does take deeds to maintain it. However, if you don't turn in your credits, eventually you WILL lose your license, (at least in Missouri). There is a reasonable comparison to salvation here. The difference is in who is in charge of getting those credits turned in on time. :)
This is the same issue I have with Orthodox fasting rules the way they are presented. On the one hand, the Church says everyone should do their "best." On the other hand, they should not compete with others, or boast like the Pharisees.
How would you describe the purpose of the Orthodox fastings rules? I.e., is the one who fasts closer to God per se, OR is the one who fasts and prays BECAUSE of it closer to God, etc.? If the latter, then everyone can try to do his best, AND there would be no point to competition. Fasting can be a very good thing. I wish my church emphasized it more.
In other words, be Christ-like, be perfect as your Father in heaven in perfect. Be good, God-like, as much as you can. Not minimum, not "just enough." ............ Being closer to God means being God-like. Being less of what we are by nature, and being more what we can be by grace. That's what theosis is.
AMEN, Kosta. :) Whether it is called theosis or sanctification, the "goal" appears to be similar.
No it was murder. Killing children, no matter what the circumstance, is murder. Killing children is not God's justice in the Christian faith.
No. "Murder" is a legal term and very often an incendiary word meant to stir emotions. It always refers to "that which is unlawful", in the genre. Since there is no law which says that God cannot intentionally kill humans, He is not subject to a charge of murder. Children or not. He is the potter and we are the clay. He can do whatever He wants with us within all bounds of morality, GIVEN God's nature as it is revealed to us in the OT and NT.
So, what's the point even if it was a temptation and you gave in to it? You could say, I am only human and I still sin, but next time I may be able to resist. But, then, you could also say, God gave it to me and I took it. I harmed no one and I feel "blessed." :)
Well, ONE point is that tests and temptations do NOT determine salvation, grace through faith does. Another point is what we ultimately take out of the experience. I can think of many temptations I have succumbed to that now are an anchor of strength for the experience. Some temptations I still struggle with today, but others are beaten by God's grace, such that they are not even temptations any more. The point is that we are closer to God for the temptations He has overcome on our behalf and we are therefore better able to serve Him.
Your humanistic approach to life is showing. Is evil not part of God's creation?
Satan is a created being, and anytime God might want Satan expunged from His creation all God has to do is erase him. Poof! Satan is no more!
Apparently that's not how God wants His creation to exist, neither now nor from the beginning.
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it." -- Isaiah 45:5-8"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Rebellion is part of the human condition. It is in our DNA. We are disobedient by nature, and unless God takes us by the throat and removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, unless God gives us new ears and new eyes, unless God graciously puts His Holy Spirit within us to renew our minds and cleanse our spirit, unless we are born again not by the will of men but by the will and purpose and predestined design of God, we will happily stay in our natural, God-denying state, to our everlasting demise.
But there are some of you that believe not."It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:63
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12-13"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS THX
“Rebellion is part of the human condition. It is in our DNA. We are disobedient by nature.”
That’s garbage.
We were created in the image of God, from the beginning. We would have remained as such if not Lucifer had taken a hand, and convinced Eve to disobey God.
Rebellion is not in our nature, but free will is in our nature. We were fearfully and wonderfully made, and we were known by God from before we were born. Made in His image.
We get to choose to love God.
God doesn’t whack us with the Holy Spirit, and then eventually we come to God. WE CHOOSE. God can intervene, but so can evil.
God has set the table with Christ’s sacrifice. If we accept this gift, we eat and live. If we don’t, then we are banished and die.
That simple. Nothing humanistic about it. God created free will too. Love isn’t love unless its freely given and freely accepted. The salvation of the Lord is the ultimate act of Love toward his human creation. Christ wasn’t compelled to give it, He gave His life freely. Those saved accept that salvation freely.
No, it isn't.
Satan is a created being
God did not create him evil.
Apparently that's not how God wants His creation to exist, neither now nor from the beginning...Isa 45:5-8
Sounds positively Manichaen to me. It doesn't surprise me that all you can quote to support your view is the Old Testament. That's because God who creates evil is not to be found in Christ.
Rebellion is part of the human condition
Of the fallen human condition. Not of the created human condition.
and unless God takes us by the throat and removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, unless God gives us new ears and new eyes, unless God graciously puts His Holy Spirit within us to renew our minds and cleanse our spirit, unless we are born again not by the will of men but by the will and purpose and predestined design of God, we will happily stay in our natural, God-denying state, to our everlasting demise
I don't see Christ doing any of this. You must know some other God.
“I don’t see Christ doing any of this. You must know some other God.”
Bingo. This guy is talking about the doctrine of Election. He did it on another thread too.
His position: you aren’t saved unless you are chosen first - the saved and the condemned - chosen from before birth.
Then he stepped all over himself in contradictions. The guys is dangerous, and indeed, living in the OT.
Read the Bible, Kosta.
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." -- John 8:44
It doesn't surprise me that all you can quote to support your view is the Old Testament. That's because God who creates evil is not to be found in Christ.
So according to you, God changes His very essence from the Old to the New Testament. Do you have any Scripture that says God has changed? Because God doesn't change. God changes men.
DR.E: and unless God takes us by the throat and removes our heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh, unless God gives us new ears and new eyes, unless God graciously puts His Holy Spirit within us to renew our minds and cleanse our spirit, unless we are born again not by the will of men but by the will and purpose and predestined design of God, we will happily stay in our natural, God-denying state, to our everlasting demise
KOSTA: I don't see Christ doing any of this.
Sadly, that becomes more obvious every day. Pray for eyes to see and God's gift of the Holy Spirit.
The "guy" has read both the Old and New Testament. You should try it sometime. You then might be better equipped to offer some Scripture to support your opinions rather than personally snide comments.
“”We were created in the image of God, from the beginning. We would have remained as such if not Lucifer had taken a hand, and convinced Eve to disobey God.””
Exactly! God played no part in the Free decision in Satan’s pride or the Free decision in Adam and Eve’s fall
That in God there can be no Evil- From Thomas Aquinas
ESSENTIAL being, and essential goodness, and all other things that bear the name of ‘essential,’ contain no admixture of any foreign element; although a thing that is good may contain something else besides being and goodness, for there is nothing to prevent the subject of one perfection being the subject also of another. Everything is contained within the bounds of its essential idea in such sort as to render it incapable of containing within itself any foreign element. But God is goodness, not merely good. There cannot therefore be in Him anything that is not goodness, and so evil cannot be in Him at all.
3. As God is His own being, nothing can be said of God that signifies participation. If therefore evil could be predicated of Him, the predication would not signify participation, but essence. Now evil cannot be predicated of any being so as to be the essence of any: for to an essentially evil thing there would be wanting being, since being is good.* There cannot be any extraneous admixture in evil, as such, any more than in goodness. Evil therefore cannot be predicated of God.
5. A thing is perfect in so far as it is in actuality: therefore it will be imperfect inasmuch as it is failing in actuality. Evil therefore is either a privation, or includes a privation, or is nothing. But the subject of privation is potentiality; and that cannot be in God: therefore neither can evil.
This truth also Holy Scripture confirms, saying: God is light, and there is no darkness in Him, (I John i, 5) Far from God impiety, and iniquity from the Almighty (Job xxxiv, 10).
“God played no part in the Free decision in Satan’s pride or the Free decision in Adam and Eve’s fall”
Alright, now that we have solved that is there anything else outside of the sovereignty of God?
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