Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

[Forest Keeper]

If I am correct in assuming that you include us calf-licks among the "apostolic", this testifies to me that we have done a downright HORRIBLE job of communicating.

Ah, a thousand pardons my friend. :) I must have inadvertently left you off the ping list for one of my earlier explanations. When I use the word "Apostolic" it is PURELY "FK-speak". :) All I mean by it are those views upon which you and the Orthodox agree. This is useful since very, very often it is my experience that I am speaking to both Roman Catholic and Orthodox posters at the same time (like in this post :).

On those views upon which you disagree I must be specific and accurate, but since there are so many that are in agreement, I just wanted a shorthand to designate it. So, I will say that "The Apostolic view is that Mary was sinless" rather than "The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views are that Mary was sinless". I promise you I mean nothing derogatory at all by it. :)

[Forest Keeper]

Not that it should matter, but I’m with FK on this. I think “Abba” means “Papa” which in most of the US translates as “Daddy”.

Yes, and in virtually every source I found for "Daddy" I also found "Papa". They are synonymous for these purposes.

[irishtenor]

Technically, yes, but why would he?

Jesus died for ALL our sins, not just a few.

[Forest Keeper]

Alex: Are you familiar with the people called St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. John, St. Luke, St. Paul, St. Peter, St. James and St. Jude?

MD: Rings a bell .... Um, didn't the last one start a hospital or something?

And a golf tournament?

[irishtenor]

They all have the same first name?

[Forest Keeper]

Christ shed HIS BLOOD that I might have intimacy with DADDY. Far be it from me to mangle that effort, intent, reality . . . or to try and define it out of existence . . . or to layer all manner of ritual and hogwash between, in the middle of it.

Amen, Quix! It is beyond me why any Christian would want to shy away from this.

[Quix]

INDEED.

Well put.

Thanks.

May Daddy bless you and yours in every way.

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN!

Thanks thanks.

[Quix]

Amen, Quix! It is beyond me why any Christian would want to shy away from this.

= =

INDEED. I wholeheartedly agree.

Thanks thanks.

[Forest Keeper]

People say, for instance, God "cannot" lie, suggesting that that is a lack of ability or power. What happens if I rephrase it thus: God cannot want to lie.

I would say that is also correct, but not a replacement for "God cannot lie". In both cases, God so doing would be for Him to act wholly in contradiction to His pure nature. I don't think that is possible. In addition, if we say that all power everywhere in the universe comes originally from God, then by definition, He cannot lack any of it. IOW, we could ask "does God lack the power to become satan?". We would answer "no, but God cannot become satan, or else, He wouldn't be God. He would be ....... something else".

I understand what you mean by "wouldn't" and that is also true. Perhaps it just comes down to who God is on a definitional level. If He is defined as unchangeable and sinless, then He can't sin. I think God supports both of those definitions in His Holy word.

[On Jesus asking for the cup to be taken away:] But again, there's the problem of speaking about His obedience as though it were a limitation rather than an accomplishment. If it were me in the garden, I'd probably say, "Get yourself another boy, I'm outta here," but that would be my failure.

I suppose I don't see it that way. Jesus was 100% man, and the instinct of men is self-preservation. He showed the instinct, and His accomplishment was in the surpassing of it by overcoming it. No limitation at all. :)

[Forest Keeper]

Much changed since the bombing of Serbia, creation of Islamic Kosovo, the war in Iraq and the unconditional support for the Israeli war in Lebanon though, — these acts showed gross insensitivity to both Eastern Catholic and especially Orthodox Christianity.

Yes, I have sympathy with much of that. I was objecting to the blaming of all of it on "Protestants", as if Bill Clinton was a representative of Protestant beliefs. Clinton is only a representative of Clinton's own interests. As for Bush, I do think he is a legitimate Protestant, but he is still capable of making mistakes, the same as anyone. Bush is one man.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: “”We do the best we can in the English to describe what can be a difficult concept.””

IMHO, Blessed Thomas Aquinas makes the explanation easy to understand. Excerpts from Summa...

That's a pretty good read, STF. Thanks for posting. :)

[wmfights]

Jesus was 100% man, and the instinct of men is self-preservation. He showed the instinct, and His accomplishment was in the surpassing of it by overcoming it. No limitation at all. :)

Makes his willingness to go to the cross all that much greater. What Amazing Love.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "Of course He was fully human. But not only was He NOT stained by original sin, He was also fully God."

Neither was Adam and he was free to disobey the will of God; and He chose to exercise (actually abuse) his freedom. From that we learn that when we abuse our freedom, we loose it.

False premise. You can't compare Adam's unique original condition to ours today. Now, only the saved are free, and in a different way than Adam. We do abuse it from time to time and are punished for it, but scripture says we cannot lose it permanently.

The difference is that Christ in His humanity chose not to disobey. That was His choice. Was He double-predestine as well and subject to the necessity of His own "plan?"

So you would say that Christ was free to contradict His own nature? You would say that even though the Bible says it can't happen, that Christ was free to serve two masters? Interesting. I assume you would say that God is unchangeable simply by the chance that Jesus chose not to sin? I could go on all day, but you get the idea. :)

BTW, no one is double-predestined to anything. That doesn't even make sense. ............. God made a plan and has been executing it flawlessly. That plan obviously included Jesus.

No wonder heretics also quote scriptures! Perhaps that's why Origen, who cannot be accused of theological poverty, eventually began teaching the error of "hierarchichal" Trinity.

You are totally misunderstanding me. I am not saying there is any hierarchy in the Trinity. There is not. Jesus said "I and the Father are one". You were attacking scripture again by saying it contradicts and I was showing you that perspective matters.

[kosta50]

False premise. You can't compare Adam's unique original condition to ours today

Freedom is freedom, FK. Adam was free to sin and so are we. If our Lord Jesus Christ is fully human, then he possess the same freedom as we do, else he is not fully human. The difference is, unlike Adam, Christ chose not to sin.

Now, only the saved are free, and in a different way than Adam. We do abuse it from time to time and are punished for it, but scripture says we cannot lose it permanently

Technically speaking, that's correct. It all depends what "saved" means. To you it means here and now. To us it doesn't. We believe that after death those who in God's eyes are deemed saved will be eternally saved. Those who die unrepentant will remain eternaly lost.

We cannot repent or sin after death. That means our freedom will be taken away forever. No one will be free to sin or to repent. But those who choose God will be in bliss because it will be their choice.

Those who are lost will suffer because they made a wrong choice. But both will be exactly where they chose to be. God gave Adam the freedom to choose, and Christ restored it to us.

Adam ended where his choice took him; Christ ended when his choice took him; and we end where our choices take us. Neither Adam, nor Chirst nor we are forced to disobey or obey God.

So you would say that Christ was free to contradict His own nature?

Christ's human and divine natures are unconfused, FK. We cannot contradict our human nature and neither could Christ in his humanity. The same goes for his divine nature.

You would say that even though the Bible says it can't happen, that Christ was free to serve two masters?

No, he could serve only one. He chose the divine—consistently. He wasn't forced.

I assume you would say that God is unchangeable simply by the chance that Jesus chose not to sin?

I think you are confusing Christ's humanity with his divinity and treating them as one and the same.

I could go on all day...

So can I. It all comes down to the Reformed idea that we are forced to be God's slaves or enemies.

BTW, no one is double-predestined to anything. That doesn't even make sense

That's the most Orthodox thing you ever said! Double-predsetination is the pillar of the Reformed superstition.

God made a plan and has been executing it flawlessly. That plan obviously included Jesus.

God's "plan" (according to the Reformed): God makes man, God makes man sin, God is so offended by man's sin he tortures and kills his Son (who is really one and the same God, so he kills himself) so that some men, whom he preordained from all eternity to be saved are saved, and some who are preordained from all eternity to be roasted are roasted. Reformed thelogy in a nutshell.

Mental note: why does all-knowing transcendental God need a plan?

You are totally misunderstanding me. I am not saying there is any hierarchy in the Trinity. There is not. Jesus said "I and the Father are one"

How convenient that you would not mention that Jesus is also quoted as saying "Father is greater than I."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the ping to this engaging sidebar and for sharing all of your insights!

I only have one thing to contribute for the discussion - namely, that the sense of "free will" is grounded in the sense of time passing - much like entropy (cars rust, people age) and counting (1,2,3, etc.)

Or to put it another way, in the absence of time there is no free will, no entropy, no change, no cause, no effect.

Space/time is part of the Creation. We mere mortals are denizens of it and our vision and mind is limited by it. But we should not presume our limitations apply to God. The Creator is not limited by His Creation.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. - Isaiah 55:8-9

Thus, when He says that He doesn't change. That is Truth.

For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. - Malachi 3:6

And thus, when He says that He obeys. That is also Truth.

I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:30

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. - John 12:27

And thus when He says "if/then" that is also Truth.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. - 2 Chronicles 7:14

And thus, when He says we are chosen from the foundation of the world, that is also Truth.

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

Man is not the measure of God.

We ought always believe and trust the words of God because they are His.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: - Luke 24:25

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48

Nevertheless, only those with "ears to hear" can perceive the words of God.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. - Matthew 22:29

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. - I Corinthians 1:24

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[betty boop]

For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. - Malachi 3:6

The LORD is the immovable unchanging ROCK on which every human being stands (whether the human is prepared to acknowledge this or not is entirely beside the point). If the ROCK started "changing," or moving around, we no longer would have firm footing anywhere.

But our LORD tells us: "I change not," declaring the substance of His Truth, which suffices and more than suffices for every human need, in this mortal world and its spiritual beyond.

Of course, such an insight is "spiritually discerned." Its total opposite is reflected in the increasingly popular doctrine that there is no one central unifying Truth, but only a plethora of various opinions of Truth, all of equal value.

Making "man the measure" of Truth is a prescription for human personal and social disaster, wherein the center no longer holds; wherein the Beast continues its relentless slouching towards Babylon....

My, but we do live in interesting times, dearest sister in Christ!

Thank you so much for your outstanding essay/post!

[hosepipe]

[ wherein the Beast continues its relentless slouching towards Babylon.... ]

A profound way of describing Donkeyfication..

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Mental note: why does all-knowing transcendental God need a plan?

(Aren't all notes mental, even those we write down? Or else we wouldn't be able to write them in the first place.)

Anyway...

The term "God's plan" refers to the fact that God is the intentional, purposeful Creator of all that exists. He does not create haphazardously or on-the-fly. If He were Zeus, He could and would. But since He is the omnipotent, omniscient Triune God of all creation, He "declared the end from the beginning."

Thus there is a purpose to every speck of life, good and bad, and that purpose is to serve God's will for His glory, one way or another.

"Known to God from eternity are all His works." -- Acts 15:18

GOD'S PERFECT PLAN

Westminster Confession of Faith 3.6

"As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the mans thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only."

God never does anything half-way. When God decides to do something, He perfectly accomplishes what He sets out to do. He has never made a plan He intended to accomplish and then left that plan incomplete or unaccomplished. The reason God's plans do not fail is that God not only decrees the end or goal He wants to accomplish, He also decrees the means necessary to achieve that end or reach that goal.

This means that when God decrees to save someone, He actually accomplishes that goal because He also decrees all the steps that will be necessary to bring that person to saving faith in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and keep that person in the faith until the very end.

God's choice in election stands because God takes into account all the factors that will be needed to actually save His chosen people from their sins. Not one person will ever be lost for whom Christ has died! As Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37).

God's plan of salvation is perfect in its completeness. God the Father not only elected a people to salvation, but He also sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to redeem them from their sins (1 Thess. 5:9). Then He sends His Holy Spirit at just the right time in His eternal plan to call each and every one of His elect to faith in Christ (Rom. 8:30). Not one of God's elect, no matter how far away, shall fail to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in God's time.

As the Holy Spirit works on the hearts of those who are chosen by God, He imparts the gift of faith (Eph. 2:8-9) so that they are enabled by God to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation.

This results in the legal declaration by God called justification (Gal. 2:16). That word simply means that God imputes, or credits to the account of God's people, the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and imputes the sins of the elect to Christ. Then God looks at the sinner who is standing in the righteousness of Christ and declares him not guilty of sin because of what Christ has done for him. And He further declares him to be holy because of the righteous work of Christ in obeying all the law of God on that sinner's behalf.

In addition to this, God the Father then adopts that person into His family as an heir in Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:5). All that Christ has is declared to be the Christian's because of his relationship to Jesus Christ.

But God does not stop there. He then begins to work in His chosen ones to sanctify them by causing each one to desire to turn from sin and practice holiness (2 Thess. 2:13). That does not mean that Christians are perfect, for we all still sin and come short of the glory of God, but it does mean that Christians are enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells us to turn away from sin and begin to live lives that are pleasing to God. Still, the standing of the Christian does not rest on his own righteousness, but solely on the work of Christ done in his place for him.

Finally, God keeps each and every Christian abiding in faith by His power and by the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Pet. 1:5).

So you see, God has left nothing to chance. He did not chose some to be saved and then not appoint all the means necessary to bring them to final salvation. He did not stop short of full salvation and say: "Now it's up to you from here on." God's plan included everything necessary to bring each and every one of the people for whom Jesus Christ died to full, complete and final salvation.

That's a great comfort, isn't it? It should bring you confidence in God's grace toward you if you are a believer. The Apostle Paul stated it this way: "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). God will not stop working in His people to save and sanctify them until the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. (And of course, He will not stop loving His people then, but at that time all opportunities for salvation will be over; the final judgment of God will have come.)

Has God begun a good work of salvation in you? Then take heart, He will accomplish what He has set out to do. But if you are one who answers "No" to that question, be afraid. It will not go well for you in the final judgment. Turn from your sin right now, and trust what Jesus Christ has done to save His people from their sin.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Creator is not limited by His Creation.

AMEN!