Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
What I said about bishops is not my private interpretation. My private interpretations are just that. I defer to the Church, regardless of what I think or interpret privately.
Well, at least you admit to private interpretation.
How many Bishops do you have who are married? If a Bishop wants to get married, does he have to stand down from his position?
In the keys promised to +Peter (Mat 16:19) and the Apostles (18:18) as the elders of the Church, the body of believers, with apostoles and appointed elders at the helm.
The church is the “Bride of Christ” given to Him by the Father
The Church is also His Body, of which He is the Head. So He is the bride of His own Body? After He left on the Pentecost the Church, the body of believers was entrusted to the Apostles.
Well, Luke 24:33-50 and Acts 1 say that there many more than the eleven, including women
But +Matthew (a witness) and +Mark (a follower of +Peter, a witness) say otherwise. +Luke was a follower of +Paul; neither were witnesses. Even if there were women included , this is contradicted by +Paul himself when he preaches that women shold remain silent in the church.
The point is that those who were entrusted to teach and baptize were not the laity, but the elders of the Church.
I understand how materialistic your faith is, but if your interpretation is correct (which I don't believe it is) the folks claiming infant baptism imparts Grace are in deep trouble. All examples of baptism in Scripture involve adults after they have believed. Trying to claim your historic lineage somehow gives you special powers just doesn't fly with those who actually read Scripture.
I believe there are several ways to interpret this verse.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God.
I think the most straight forward is Jesus is talking about physical birth and spiritual birth. Another very reasonable understanding is Jesus was using the phrase "born of water" as a symbol for the word of God.
If you notice in Mark 16:16 it is not the lack of baptism that condemns.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
I have always admitted to private "musings." The important this is that I defer to the Church in the final analysis, no matter what I concocted in my head.
How many Bishops do you have who are married?
Zero. None.
If a Bishop wants to get married, does he have to stand down from his position?
Yes. That is the self-imposed Church discipline. A Bishop in the East is almost always drawn from the ranks of monastics who have given up their wordily treasures and devoted their entire life to Christ. They can also, in exceptional circumstances, be elected from the ranks of widowed priests.
From a practical POV if it was so little why did he pray to The Father to take the cup from him?
One more thing, apropos this question, a priest or deacon cannot be married after they receive the holy orders (ordination). They must be married prior to that. Thus, a bishops who decided to get married could not remain in any ordianed capacity in the Church.
***Yes. That is the self-imposed Church discipline. ***
That’s my point. Extra-Biblical church traditions opposing the Bible. In your church the Bible is secondary to whatever the church decides is right. There is no BIBLICAL requirement for the Bishop to be single. In fact, the Bible states that Bishops must be married to one wife.
There has never been a binding ecumenical council that did what you claim. So please lay out for us how all this was accomplished and when.
So God had nothing to do with it?
Why?
Likewise.
What else is new? We prefer to follow the interpretatkion believed by the Church all along, when the Church put together the canon.
There is evidence of baptizing whole families and second century grave markers indicate infants who died with words "servent of the Lord."
John 3:5...Jesus is talking about physical birth and spiritual birth.
The Church always treated that as water baptism and sacramental seal of the HS (chrismation) as one Baptism.
Another very reasonable understanding is Jesus was using the phrase "born of water" as a symbol for the word of God
Oh, please...
If you notice in Mark 16:16 it is not the lack of baptism that condemns. Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved
Being baptized is necesssry part of the salvational formula. If you are baptized and you don't believe, you cannot be saved through baptism alone. But infants cannot believe; they can be patized however.
Baptized children are washed of their sin. They are sinless until the age of reason. If they do not believe after the age of reason, their baptism is no longer sufficient.
Nowhere in those verses does it say that the church was given to anyone. He says “the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven” and that is not the church. Nowhere do the scriptures say that the church was entrusted to the Apostles alone or only those who succeeded the Apostles. The church at Antioch is a prime example of a church not run by Apostles. In fact it was run by laymen “prophets and teachers” who moved by the Holy Spirit, singled out Paul and Barnabas to go on the first missionary journey. If the church was under the direction of an Apostle, why was it necessary for the lay people to authorize two Apostles to go out preaching?
“But +Matthew (a witness) and +Mark (a follower of +Peter, a witness)” Mark does not include the “Great Commission” in his Gospel. It ends at chapter 16:8, the rest was added sometime later by an unknown. Luke, however, researched his material from many sources, Luke 1:1-3, “Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,”
“The point is that those who were entrusted to teach and baptize were not the laity, but the elders of the Church.”
In Acts 18:24-28, it is Aquilla and his wife Priscilla, tent makers, who teach Apollos the way and then he becomes a powerful teacher in Ephesus and Corinth, so much so, his following almost splits the church at Corinth. Nowhere is it said that Priscilla , Aquilla or Apollos, all laity, were empowered by the Apostles to teach or were answerable to the Apostles, yet they were carrying out the “Great Commission”.
The first time I saw this I figured you were just having a bad moment so I let it go. Obviously I was wrong, you really believe this. If this is the EO position it explains a little about how the muslims came to your lands and dominated your church for centuries. You didn't have enough clergy to convert them.
Matt. 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
Then why do you baptize non believers?
There is evidence of baptizing whole families and second century grave markers indicate infants who died with words "servent of the Lord."
Error creeps in quickly. IIRC, there were others who tried to wait till just before they died to be baptized because they were afraid if they sinned afterward they would be condemned.
That's asinine. We are given one single prayer in the Bible as a commandment; are we then "opposing" the Bible by having prayers other than "Our Father?" Is there a prohibition against more than one prayer in the Bible? Is there a prohibition against celibacy in the Bible? Are you just trying to be obtuse or what?
Bible is secondary to whatever the church decides is right
The Bible is central to the life of the Church, bit is not the only source of authority in it. The Church existed before the Bible. The Church was not founded on the Bible but the Bible on the Church.
You are preaching bibliolatry.
There is no BIBLICAL requirement for the Bishop to be single
No there isn't. There is also no prohibition against him being celibate.
In fact, Apostle Paul calls on men to be like him (single and celibate). Is St. Paul "opposing" the Bible? He is about as senior as it gets in the Church.
In fact, the Bible states that Bishops must be married to one wife
In fact, this means that if he is married he must be married only to ONE wife, not more than one. Nothing prohibits the Church from imposing a discipline upon itself that is in line with the lifestyle practiced by the Apostles and our Lord Himself; a life of celibacy.
***You are preaching bibliolatry.***
And you are preaching churchiology.
I think I just coined a new word. Thanks Kosta50!
The Great Commission says "baptize in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit..." it says nothing of the need to believe. Baptism is for the remission of sins. We are cleansed of them, voluntary or involuntary.
Those who are baptized and do not believe when they can believe cannot be saved based on baptism alone. The infants and children can, for they have no sin. Our Lord makes it very clear that unless we are like them (without sin) we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
Unbaptized children cannot be saved, save for God's will to save whomever He desires. But the Church is commanded to baptize regardless of age, race or gender, and teach them the Gospels.
Error creeps in quickly. IIRC, there were others who tried to wait till just before they died to be baptized because they were afraid if they sinned afterward they would be condemned
Who objected to infant baptism in the 1st through 16th centiry? Why are they errors? There is nothing that says you cannot baptize children. Nothing! Baptized children are the ideal Christ wants us to be like.
there were others who tried to wait till just before they died to be baptized because they were afraid if they sinned afterward they would be condemned
That's the chance some are willing to take. It's valid, however. It may not seem fair, but it's valid. Just like the vineyard workers wages. He problem is that you may not have a chance to be baptized before you die, so it's a gamble.
However, the Church also has the sacrament of repentance and confession, and communion, through which we can keep our sins to a minimum if we truly repent ad receive the Lord in contrite heart and true repentance, fasting and prayer, changing our lives so that we do not repeat those sins; in other words, it's forgiven, now "go and sin no more" type of forgiveness. Not something you can come back every Sunday and confess over and over.
Whatever feeds you ego, I don't care. That doesn't change the fact that the Churech existed before the Christian Bible did. The Church functioned, lived we would say, without the Bible for many years, so the Bible is not the sole source of its authority and tradition, of which the Apostles were an integral and crucial part.
These are facts. You can stick your head into the sand and pretend that nothing is true except what's in your mind...that's always an option. Cyber reality revisited.
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