Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
The Catholic Church began at Pentecost;
That is sooooooooooooo outrageously untrue as to almost be well . . . is . . . galactic Olympic level outrageousness. It's untrue to History and Untrue to Scripture.
every other church is a construct of men that was cobbled together during the last few centuries (except for a few during the first half of the last millennium). We have the history, we have the Church Fathers, we have the Apostolic Succession, we are the creation of, and have the blessing of Jesus.
HOGWASH. The RC edifice has political fantasies and fables held forth as fact when they are anything but fact.
God has been well able to build HIS CHURCH just as he was well able to lead Samuel Morris through the jungle to a mission compound without any aid of any human at all. The Holy Spirit's light and voice led him for 2 weeks. God has built HIS CHURCH UNIVERSAL similarly in countless spots around the globe . . . sometimes with only scraps of Scripture. NO RC edifice in sight AT ALL. But folks learned to Love and follow the Jesus of The UNRUBBERIZED Bible.
***But God has quite a different perspective from that of the RC magicsterical.***
Have you acquired the Reformed ability to speak for God?
Actually, God has required me to speak for Him on occasion. But, alas, my fasting has not been sufficiently up to snuff often enough and I've often missed acting and acted amiss for Him. Thankfully, His Mercy and Grace avail.
One time, against my better judgment, I agreed to see an alcoholic woman at a Baptist counseling center late in the evening. Turned out she was drunk--further violating a boundary I had. Suddenly, I listened to words flowing out of my mouth ordering her to sober up instantly. She was virtually falling down drunk. It's a wonder she could walk at all. Yet, amazingly, she INSTANTLY sobered up and the session was fruitful. She was shocked and scared spitless. I was just a bit surprised but not that shocked because I'd already seen God do some amazing things in my life.
BTW, no apparitions were involved.
***but only received the Bible and began believing it and applying it.***
Ethiopian eunuchs read and do not understand. They have the words but not the teachings. You may wish to peruse Acts 8: 26-40 for further clarification.
I'm well acquainted with Acts 8. Sometimes God uses others. Sometimes He speaks directly as in Samuel Morris' case. THE MARCH OF FAITH biography is a great testimony to what God can do DIRECTLY in the life of anyone 100% devoted to and in love with God. If anything, the limited magicsterical association Sammy had to put up with was probably as much of a bother as a help.
You may not not his story--he would walk more or less quietly into the side or back door of a large auditorium without others being aware that he was arriving . . . but the minute that his feet crossed the threshhold, 100's of attendees would RUN screaming and crying to the front confessing their sins and seeking salvation through Christ.
Again, ABSOLUTELY NO RC edifice, representation, apparitions, dogmas, idols, icons, rituals etc. were involved IN THE LEAST.
I suppose that the RC magicsterical might pontificate that it must have been demons calling individuals to repent and turn to Christ . . . but as Christ declared in the New Testament . . . that's a rather silly postulation, interpretation on such an event. I certainly wouldn't recommend it even to the grasping-at-straws RC edifice.
Sure it's been "decried". So what is the outcome? Protestants have more flexibility in such matters. But for the Church who claims to have rigid Canons and rules, in truth rulebreakers are seldom chastened and most of this is ignored.
2) defend their Catholic brothers You bet. The discussion here is about worship of Mary and statues the most common of accusations debunked here too many times to count. How many hoops will you have us jump through?
This pastor email is a prime example of where Catholicism in third world countries is nothing more than idolatry. In a way it is the same here in the US. People don't leave gifts before NJ Tunnels if they believe Mary is in heaven.
3) incorporate it into the Mass Again, if it is liturgically illicit or invalid it should be condemned, proscribed, and disciplined. We can't count on all our bishops to do the job properly, true enough.
I'm sure that if we are reading about these things going on in the Church around the world, someone is technically savvy within the Vatican to be reading the same information. Do you see any condemnation coming from the Vatican? They have enough to do with trying to fill priestly slots. They aren't about to criticize or remove priests.
Why would we not defend our doctrine as vigorously as you do yours?
What is supported is "The Church is right, period." Hardly a careful analysis of the inspired word of God, as declared by the Catholic Church.
Thanks.
Excellent post.
And this:
However, I do criticize the practice because it can so easily LEAD to exactly what God warned us to never do in the Bible.
= = =
Except for the perversities of human nature . . . it is mystifying why anyone claiming to be a Christian would appear to tenaciously, vigorously coze up as close as possible to the very thing God forbade in the harshest of terms in Scripture
RATHER THAN
FLEEING AS FAR AWAY FROM SUCH AS POSSIBLE.
Must have something to do with the “heart being deceitfully wicked” sort of stuff.
Wellllll, I’ll step up to the plate . . .
Many RC edifice doctrines and practices ARE doctrines of men and others are doctrines of demons.
Alas, that’s true in most denominations and Christian groups older than several years.
It’s just that the RC edifice is one of the worst examples because of 1600 years of practice.
Hos 4:12 ... "They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood. A spirit of prostitution leads them astray; they are unfaithful to their God."
Were not the people the author observed "consulting a piece of stone"?
Exactly correct. And yet even idolaters who pray before wooden sticks might insist the wooden stick is only representative of something else which is the same excuse the RCC gives.
When Indians bowed down to the dead head of a wild boar, they didn't just believe that dead boar had power over them, but all other boars which were represented by the one dead animal.
But the bottom line is that they were still praying to someone and something other than God, whether it was the dead boar in front of them or the living ones still roaming around the plains.
So this excuse by the RCC that they are not praying to the wood but to what the wood represents doesn't hold up.
Either way it's still idolatry. It's still prayers to an unknown god.
"They are unfaithful to their God."
And it’s also rather sad to see “Bible believing” Christians like Pharisees.
= = =
There’s plenty of phariseeism to go around in any large, oldish group and most small, young ones.
Pride and being convinced that one has a corner on truth is a hard human trait to eradicate. Takes a lot of fiery furnaces and no small number of refresher courses over a long period of time.
My experiences and observations convince me that Phariseeism is MOST INTENSE AND MOST ENTRENCHED in those groups that genuinely believe AND TEACH that they have an exclusive corner on truth; that THEY are most righteous etc. etc. etc. etc.
THERE we tend to find Phariseeism in ABUNDANCE.
But, hey, it’s understandable that folks love to point that finger. And, where God agrees, it may be a fitting exhortation. However, if a pharisee is pointing a finger at someone who’s NOT a phrisee . . . God may have VERY DIFFERENT sensibilities about such goings on.
Before Constantine, the church was a band of heroic men and women who were so committed to serve the Lord Jesus Christ that they would endure any hardship. After 314 A.D., the Church became infiltrated by opportunists who were seeking power and political advancement. Church leaders were no longer in danger of persecution. Rather, they enjoyed all the trappings of power and luxury.
Historian Paul Johnson asks, “Did the empire surrender to Christianity, or did Christianity prostitute itself to the empire?” [Note 9]
The temptation for an ungodly alliance with Rome was very great. But at what cost?
1. Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church” (New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1981), pages 31-33. A major theme of this book is the radical change which occurred in the Church as a result of Constantine. The author was a Catholic priest and a theologian.
= = =
INDEED.
Such an excellent post and set of REFS. Thanks.
Job 32:4 And Elihu had waited beside Job with words, because they were older than he in days.
Job 32:5 When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled.
Job 32:6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and you are very old; therefore I was afraid, and dared not show you my opinion.
Job 32:7 I said, Days should speak, and the multitude of years should teach wisdom.
Job 32:8 But a spirit is in man giving them perception, even the breath of the Almighty.
Job 32:9 It is not the great that are wise, nor the aged who understand judgment.
I don't have your church, and I understand the words of Scripture just fine. In fact, a lot better than many RCs apparently.
That is because it is not the "church" that gives understanding, but God through the Holy Spirit.
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." -- Psalm 119:73,130 "Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments...
No eunuchs involved, except for the occasional "another Christ."
Pro 23:13 Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you beat him with the rod, he will not die.
That too is a form of love.
Praise God at least one authentic Bro hereon can see the truth of that.
What loving purpose can my fiesty fierce provocative postings serve?
1. They tend to be more memorable than polite phrasings. Holy Spirit has a bit of an easier, longer time with which to work to filter the truth of them into an individual's spirit, psyche, . . .
2. They are not so easily, glibly, mindlessly passed over as inconsequential, uninteresting, dry, shallow chaff.
3. They are not so intellectually erudite and pontifical in an elitest fashion. They are more practically toned in a down-to-earth and PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE sort of character which resonates with the realities of the common person and their daily experiences in the real world.
4. They tend to naturally niggle away at someone until some significant amount of thought has transpired--particularly, as noted above, with Holy Spirit's aid in making sure such occurs.
5. They may even provoke a lot of Scriptural searching and study--which I greatly like.
6. Sometimes, they lay bare the illusory, maybe deluded intents of the heart as bankrukpt, shallow, idolatrous, lacking.
7. They are not so easy to rationalize and glibly side-step. Certainly it can be done in a surface way and fairly quickly . . . but deeper in the psyche and soul, spirit, it doesn't wash so easily. And more wrestling occurs.
8. The emotions they trigger can foster a lot of angst and soul-searching resulting therefrom. Such soul searching more easily lends itself to searching Scriptures than may otherwise occur.
Of course, such is not guaranteed and one size doesn't fit all. Mileage may also vary. Nevertheless, I know the above to be very true, because I've been on the receiving end of such quite a lot in my life with such results being quite fruitful in my life.
There are other aspects of usefulness to The Lord but I'll stop there.
I agree completely.
That's why I am not a member of the RCC which practices idolatry, shamanism, mysticism and inherent contradiction.
Augustine is right about some things and not as right about others. I'd like to see your source for this exact quote.
As I said, no notion of nuance AND no real empathy. The S-E’s can fake it pretty well, but they don’t get it, not really.
The empathy of the RC edifice is
particularly
impressive . . .
[sputtering rolling guffaws building larger and larger]
But I would be interested, fascinated . . . in a kind of . . . etiology of how
OUR WAY OR THE HIGHEWAY POLITICAL MANDATE ON THEOLOGICAL TRUTH
morphs into
EMPATHY.
Very curious notion, that.
The empathy of the RC edifice is
particularly
impressive . . .
[sputtering rolling guffaws building larger and larger]
Mark, if you'd just read your Bible more often you'd find that truth on many pages...
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:3-6"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
I know the RCC tells its members they either sink or swim by their own good works, but that's not what the Bible teaches us. We are saved by Christ's work on the cross alone, and those who have been covered by that work were ordained by God from before the foundation of the world for His glory, not because of their own clever decision to behave themselves. Remember, Mark, God "declared the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10.)
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." -- Romans 9:16
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
This is what the Bible is telling you, Mark. If your church isn't giving you the Good News of God's eternal love based on His mercy alone and not on your good efforts, then your church has some explaining to do.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:4-10"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Get the picture? All good works we do were "ordained" by God "that we should walk in them."
Boast if you need to. As for me, I'll boast in the Lord who did it ALL for me.
Do the fallen angles “believe that Christ is not only the eternal Son of God but the Saviour of the world?W replies:
Where in Scripture are we told that Angels are given souls to be redeemed by the Sacrifice of Jesus?Here we see the deflecting attack on someone for what that person did NOT say. This is like a smokescreen behind which the first person's point is lost.
Some time ago, when I started on the RF on FR, I would have said that this was either conscious or sort of "psychopathology of everyday life" stuff - a "convenient" misunderstanding.
Now, judging by the apparent sincerity of the outrage when these things are noticed and pointed out, I'd say it's more akin to the phenomenon I've noted in PD victims of what I think of as "malleable history, malleable reality". Yes, the misunderstanding is still convenient, but there may be remaining almost no capacity to see that this there is any pathology here, and the more the matter is pressed, the more violent the response will be.
For me one of the hardest hurdles to get over was that S-E folks, like most PD victims, really sincerely believe the altered history and reality. My amateur but not entirely without training guess is that the therapeutic path has to involve something like the old Chemical Dependency Unit course or like a 12 step program.
I'm entirely serious here.
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