Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
I don't know exactly the ins and outs in the RC Church. There's probably one one-sentence rule and then 50 pages of exceptions.
He sent them to the 12 tribes of Israel that was doomed from the get-go.
Yes, indeed. On a purely technical matter, I would switch it a little to say: "If you have been blessed with grace then you shall have faith in Jesus, and you will be saved." But I know what you mean. :) And you're right on about the fear factor. It makes no sense. There is no such thing as ping-pong salvation. God's plan was not for us to spend our time on earth twisting in the wind.
Eastern bishops are usually drawn from the monastic ranks. Eastern bishops cannot be married (priests anddeaocns can, before theor ordination).
How much more of a promise of salvation can we have than, “I will never leave you or forsake you.”
Praise God.
Amen, FK. No bopping in and out of Grace!
God won't. We leave Him, however, sometimes permanently.
1. He IS looking for Biblical 'excuse' to save people and NOT Biblical 'excuse' to damn them. HIS MERCY DOES triumph over even His justice.
Could you clarify the last part a little bit? It's hard for me to conceptualize anything triumphing over God's justice. :) I would say that Christ on the cross fully satisfied God's justice. (But, that's probably what you meant. :) In the way my mind works, "triumphing over justice" would be like getting a guilty client off on a technicality.)
2. ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS--in confessed up, repented up, right-standing with God--have the capacity IN SOME MYSTERIOUS SENSE AND IN SOME CONTEXTS, CONTINGENCIES--to pronounce forgiveness over others which God will pay attention to.
Yes, God commands us to confess our sins to one another, and also to forgive others of their sins against us. Forgiveness should be sought from all applicable entities, which in all cases is God plus the person or people aggrieved.
However, I, personally, need to insure that I forgive EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, ROUTINELY, THOROUGHLY, as fully from the heart as I'm able and asking God to make it complete in my inner man.
That is a wonderful and Biblical policy. May we all do so as well.
It seems rather Scripturally true to me, that my inner sense from Holy Spirit, that God is looking for Biblical reasons to save people vs damn people is quite plausible, true.
I suppose from my perspective God wouldn't be looking for reasons to do either. It's already done. :) Before even Adam existed He predestined His elect to salvation. (Eph. 1:4-6)
GOD HIMSELF HAS CHOSEN, CONDESCENDED, to INVOLVE US in this great drama via prayer. Some folks [e.g. Hagin et al] go so far as to contend that God has placed The Church Universal in charge of this planet and limits His own parameters TO SOME DEGREE, in many cases [some would say all] according to our prayers.
Yes, certainly God wants us all very involved with others through prayer and fellowship. I'm not sure I could go as far as Mr. Hagin does, though, since the answer to one of Jesus' prayers was a flat out "NO"! :)
Dear Kosta, if God will never leave us, and he will never forsake us, we cannot leave him. If God calls us as his children, he will never lose us. Ever. If God were to lose even one of his children, he would be a failure, and God isn’t a failure, is he? Just like the parable of the lost sheep, God will continue the search until the lost sheep is found.
If God has called you his child, is your will stronger than his? You say you have free will, I say if you can twart God, your will is stronger than his, therefore you are HIS god. Is that the way it is?
It is clear that the early Gospel writers did not think of jesus as being God-man, but man, as the Jews would have thought of their messiah.
Because Jesus did not give in to temptation does not mean that the temptation He faced was not genuine.
How can it be "genuine" when the outcome was never in question? It's like allowing someone to tickle your feet to see if they can get you to laugh, and you you can absolutely resist laughing? It's a pretense. It's not a real challenge or a lesson, let alone a path to virtue!
Each one of us is fully human. Each one of us has been genuinely tempted. Yet, all of us have successfully resisted temptation at one time or another and not sinned
But there was no certainty in it, so for us, sinful human, it is a virtue. But if you know that no matter how much you are tempted you will never succumb, then the temptation is a charade.
The reason He did not give in to temptation was because He was [sic] God and it was impossible for Him to sin
I suppose that was a "Freudian slip."
One does not become innocent, one is innocent, a state of being that is worthless until it becomes virtue
Innocense is worthless unless it becomes a virtue?
Jesus was virtuous all of His life as God, but it was demonstrated by His obedience.
And what feat was that for Him?
Yes, pretty much. :) However, we humans do not experience it that way. For example, you might pray for a thing to happen which you would normally think very unlikely to happen. Then, suddenly that thing happens. Did God respond to your prayer? "Sure", I would say. God knew the prayer was coming and whether it was in accordance with His will (in this case "yes".) So, the thing happened. From our POV, it appears that God did something He would not have otherwise done BUT FOR our prayer. I just don't think it works like that from God's POV.
***It is clear that the early Gospel writers did not think of jesus as being God-man, but man, as the Jews would have thought of their messiah. ***
John 20:28 “Thomas said “My Lord and my God.”
Obvious to me.
I wasn't there witnessing what this Randall called "idolatry", but you have to know that the Catholic Church does not have nor promote ANY idols. There is but one God in Three Divine Persons: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Everyone else is just family and part of His body, known as The Church. I have pictures and reminders of many of Christ's saints (including one of my grandmother who's passed from this world). They give Glory and witness to Christ in fantastic ways.
I'm sure you keep photos of loved ones in your wallet and hanging on your walls. Would you say that you worship them? Certainly not! But looking at their pictures reminds you of them and things they've done.
Regarding praying to saints: we acknowledge what Paul said about the "crowd of witnesses cheering us on"--those being the souls who've fought the good fight and are with. Just as I call a friend to ask for prayers, I also will "call" one of my brothers or sisters in Christ who sees Him face to face and ask for his/her prayers, too.
I'm actually not all that familiar with this area of the law, but I would strongly think that any such request would have to have grounds. That is, there would have to be a showing of parental unfitness. My children could not "divorce" themselves from my custody "just because". I would assume it works the same in the case of legal adoption. Since God is incapable of unfitness, the turn your analogy takes would not apply.
As with my example, I would imagine such a thing happens very seldom. However, in the victim's mind he IS damned, even though the truth is otherwise. This potential is one reason I object to the power claimed.
FK: ***Let’s say that your car dies on you and you have it towed to your favorite mechanic, me. I examine the car and then I tell you “I promise I will have it fixed for you by tomorrow”. You come back the next day and I smile and tell you that the repairs went fine. You hop in and turn the key but nothing happens. Then you get out and ask me what’s going on. I smile again and say that I actually didn’t touch your car, but I have assembled all the tools you’ll need to fix it yourself. According to you I fully kept my promise to fix your car.***
Slow day? No, the analogy doesn’t work. Jesus is the WAY, the Truth and the Life. The Way. The Journey. Not the limousine. It is up to us to make that journey - and He makes it possible - it is impossible otherwise.
I don't see where you address my point at all. The Bible says (promises) that those who truly believe on Christ are saved. Yet, Catholicism says "maybe". My analogy compares the promise (scripture) with the reality in Catholicism (something very different).
FK: ***Just for fun, let’s extend the analogy. :) Now, let’s say that the next time I actually do fix your car, just as I promised. You thank me and ask if my work is guaranteed. I say “Absolutely” and then hand you a certificate which says “Eternal Guarantee”. Well, after a while your car breaks down again and you bring it back. You present the “Eternal Guarantee” and expect me to fix it for free. I say “No way. You see, the Eternal Guarantee is only good until the next time your car breaks down. As soon as it breaks down, the Eternal Guarantee expires. Therefore, if you want it fixed you will have to pay full price” (confession/penance). Under Apostolic thought you have no problem with this and think it is perfectly fair. :)***
Eternal salvation is not a car wreck and the Guarantee comes with conditions - the Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start.
Again, I do not see you addressing my point. The car breaking down again is analogous to the next mortal sin. That is, the thing that the guarantee is supposed to guarantee against. My point is that in Catholicism a guarantee is claimed (one is "eternally saved"), but it is actually meaningless since "eternally saved" can be wiped out with one mortal sin.
If the Reformed truly believe that they are following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and they still sin, then the Holy Spirit is guiding the Reformed to sin.
That would apply to you too, unless you renounce that the Holy Spirit leads you. We do follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but not IN perfection since we still sin. That is no reflection on Holy Spirit. Besides, how can a Comforter comfort without leading?
The Reformed seem awful hung up on control issues.
Well, I will admit that I AM! :) To me, the sovereignty of God goes directly to His identity and our understanding of Him. It directly affects my life. If God is sovereign, then I can rest on His promises and seek to obey Him with confidence. If God has delegated away the powers most important concerning humans TO humans, then my eternal destiny is in a constant state of flux. Who knows where I will end up? I hope I do a good enough job, etc. It would also mean that God does not love me in the way I thought He did. Under the delegated powers system God would love me FAR FAR less than I love my own children. I.e., I would do serious jail time for at least reckless endangerment and child neglect/abuse if I treated my children the same way God treats His children under the Apostolic view. That's actually a scary thought to me. :) And I DO love my children very very much! :)
that the Catholic Church does not have nor promote ANY idols.
= = =
I know that’s what the RC edifice SAYS out of one side of it’s magicsterical mouth.
WHAT IT DOES
if OBVIOUSLY quite another matter.
I’ve been in a number of RC buildings. It’s not rocket science to conclude that the RC edifice DOES PROMOTE idols.
Rationalizations to the contrary are transparent and full of hogwash to anyone with a fair-minded enough objective distance from the emotionality of the issue.
The wallet photos and asking mortal friends for prayers are entirely different. I think part of you knows that.
Good Points, imho.
John 20:28 “Thomas said “My Lord and my God.”
Irish, John's Gospel was the last written, about 60 years after Christ, at the very end of the 1st century. The earlier Gospels, written about 20 years before, do not mention his divnity. That is a considerable gap, especially in context where the Church was at those times.
You are reading the Book out od context.
It is so wonderfully simple it's hard to believe.
We really only need to ask was Jesus who he said he was and were his words accurately written down?
***Some would argue that its easy to be wise without a wife...or maybe that’s to be a “wise guy”. (She Who Must Be Obeyed made me post this, bd.)***
I am much wiser now that I am married. I have that second opinion (and third, and fourth...) so that I am never out of options.
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