Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
You know that I strongly agree with you - we are all parts of the body of Christ and ought to confront the evil in this world united by and in the love of God.
It has everything to do with the mindset of the authors of the NT. They were seeing the world through the eyes of Judaism, not Christianity or, for that matter 21st century Protestant Christians. The Noahides were considered saved through Judaism. There is nothing in the synoptic Gospels to indicate that Christ came to save specifically the Gentiles. To the contrary, taking the Gospel to the Gentiles came as a result of Jewish refusal of the Gospels.
The Jews were wrong about many things at that time.
So were the Christians who expected the second coming within one generation. So were the Apostles who expected Christ to restore the kingdom of Israel after the Resurrection.
Take for example your above in which you admit to cherry-picking your interpretation of the Gospels while throwing out other NT scripture when you can't reconcile them
There is nowhere in the NT that says that Christ came to save the Gentiles. It was a reaction to the Jewish refusal of His ministry. He is quoted as saying that the only reason he was sent was for the lost sheep of Israel, And he specifically forbade the Apostles to minister to the Gentiles. He calls Gentiles "dogs."
What you call "reconciling" is nothing but rationalization. It doesn't matter if the glass is half full or half empty—it's not full! There is nothing to reconcile and no amount of rationalization will make it full.
The Gospels are true AND Paul's writings are true
And there are unicorns on Jupiter. Trust me.
[Re Gal 2:15 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles"] He means by birth. He doesn't mean that Gentiles have a sinful nature and Jews do not. That would be ridiculous. Here is the word used: NT:5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from NT:5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usage: KJV - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
The NT Greek lexicon states:
physis: nature
He is stating that the Jews are somehow different form the Gentiles, by nature/essence, when it comes to being sinful. But, since not all Jews are born Jewish, your suggestion that he meant by "birth" is simply wrong as a matter of fact. He is saying that Jewishness somehow separates people by nature (essence), that the Gentiles can never be like the Jews. He makes that very clear.
That is entirely in harmony with the Jewish attitude towards the Noahaides (the "righteous Gentiles") who, although saved because they followed the law, could never be the same as the Jews.
Talk about cherry-picking! :) If Paul taught anything he taught that all men are equally guilty before God, and that all need a Savior, including Jews.
No, not cherry-picking. That verse represents St. Paul's attitude across the board. Sure, the Gentiles are included, (in Judaism also the Noahides), but they are not the same as the Jews, and because by nature/essence they differ, they can never be the same. We tend to believe that all humans are human by nature, that this is everyone's world, and all humans are entitled to the same rights as any other human, regardless of religion, race, origin, etc. If we start justifying our differences "by nature" we are on thin ice!
I know that many people think that God helps those who help themselves, but the truth is that it is the opposite...But we WERE talking about salvational issues with the Jews and Gentiles. "God helps those who help themselves" may be the most common form of stating a works-based salvation theology.
The Bible also says women are "saved" by having babies. Just because one says he or she believes, does not mean they are Christ-like? Faith without works is a dead faith.
Of course Angel-Gal has been falsely accused for Christ's sake. Happens all the time hereon to many. No presumption involved at all. Just the raw facts.
If someone's heart is right in their efforts . . .
If someone's spiritual discernment is right in their efforts . . .
If someone's sense of Scriptural truth is right in their efforts . . .
BEFORE GOD
And a respondent is critical . . . particularly out of a fleshly critical, 'bad-faith' sort of spriit, place, attitude . . .
then the first person has born attack for Christ's sake.
Rather simple, seems to me.
Alamo-Girl has stated multiple times hereon that her font makes it easy to find her own posts for reference.
I rather like it for the same reason. Fast scrolling searches save time.
DITTO BTW, for my BLUE FONT.
Of course, I greatly like blue and color in general and for a number of years have decided that I'll do more of what I like vs march to strangers' sensibilities about what they think I should do.
If I had to rank the reasons?
1. I like blue. I enjoy seeing it. Helps me with the screen 4 feet away from my eyes. 40% of the reason probably.
2. Helps me find the posts I think are more meaty or more useful or some such much more quickly for reference . . . 30%.
3. Helps the lurkers (to whom I'm MOSTLY writing) find my more useful posts easier and quicker . . . 30%.
It's sad that poor Jr psychologists wannabe's may find all such merely attention seeking. But I know that they have such little experience with me, they have no idea that just walking calmly down the street dressed normally and acting conventionally has been quite sufficient for attracting plenty of attention AND THEN SOME.
In other words, just being plain, simple, me at my most inobtrusive has virtually always attracted far more attention than I wanted.
At some point, God made it clear to me that I needed to quit bothering about the results of how HE made me. Instead, He expected me to not only roll with it but to learn to use all such for The Kingdom.
I'm still learning about that but we've come a long ways, He and I. And, assaults just add to my account . . . so assault away.
So, the Jr psychologist wannabe's can go kiss Freud's nose on the nearest statue and see if that will make their prognostications any more accurate. Nothing else seems to be working currently.
Plenty of truth.
However, God doesn’t put up with rebellion, ultimately, from anyone—particularly ‘the elect.’
It distresses me to no end that Christians should dispute and quarrel with one another.... Especially these days, when our Christian culture is under implacable attack, we ought instead to stand united against the Common Enemy.
Enormously true.
Sigh.
***I think you are forced to say believers are led to only a superficial and “minimal” degree, since so much power must be reserved for the Magisterium.***
It’s not power, it’s authority. The Apostles were given authority to interpret and to teach. Those who did not hold with the Apostles and their successors very often descended in apostacy and heresy. The Spirit leads, but sinful, prideful man very often chooses another leader.
***As with other verses also so interpreted, it really leaves the Spirit’s leading of the laity to be much of a joke, IMO. For anything that actually matters, my understanding is that the hierarchy of the Church claims SOLE authority to receive and interpret any messages from God. ***
It is not a joke and the Church has never claimed to be the sole authority to receive any message from God, but it does reserve the authority to interpret it.
Without the Holy Spirit, we would not have the Dominicans or the Franciscans. We would not have had Mother Teresa form her order. The Church is not a monolithic tower of power, stagnating all that it cannot stifle.
It is the teaching authority given first to the Apostles, and then passed on to the successors.
***If God ONLY leads the hierarchy of the Church on important matters, then what can a layman do? He either conforms, or he is excommunicated and, in his mind, is condemned to hell forever.***
The layman can do much; where do you think all the orders came from - both lay and clergy? Excommunication is not the condemnation of the Church - it has no power to save or damn. It is the formal recognition that the Church gives to one who has excommunicated himself.
***Sure, but to then claim that your particular Church THEREFORE holds ALL TRUTH doesn’t make sense. There are tons of examples of hierarchs of your Church disagreeing with the majority. Are the positions of your official Church based on a majority vote of hierarchs?***
The Church holds all Truth that is imparted to it by the Holy Spirit. We are not democrats - Truth is never uncovered by a voting crowd. St. Augustine disagreed with the Church for much of his life. It didn’t make it right then and it doesn’t make it right now.
“There is nowhere in the NT that says that Christ came to save the Gentiles.”
Simeon’s prophecy in Luke 2:32, “A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel” which is a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy in Isa. 49:6, “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”
What is interesting about the Isaiah prophecy is it says that the ministry of the “servant” would be secret and he would be subject to the rulers of his time, but ultimately all rulers would worship him.
“It has everything to do with the mindset of the authors of the NT. They were seeing the world through the eyes of Judaism, not Christianity”
Luke was probably Greek writing to Greeks using the Greek form of historical research and forms.
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. - Ephesians 6:10-20
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7
God bless you, A-G. Your posts are always a blessing.
Me too.. for at some (spiritual)stage I was all those things and more and may be again.. But I was brought through all of them.. I know my faith and whom I have faith in.. because of the HEEL MARKS I see following me.. MY heel marks.. The(my) precious savior saved me with such bodacious salvation I cannot even express it adequately..
Where some notice the "foot prints" in the sand (metaphorically) because they were "carried" I must see the heel marks.. because I was "DRAGGED".. Much to my amazement and good fortune..
NOW THATS LOVE... sister(s) and brother(s)... thats love..
"He" stuck his hand into the mud pit even a fiery pit and dragged me to safety and a clean place.. all the while I'm complaining.. WHY?.. WHY you ask?.. I have no excuse the BIG GUY just loves me I guess.. I am a fortunate person the lotto is chump change.. I won the big one..
I'm just sayin, you know what I mean?..
And boopy too.. oops
Thanks for your encouragements . . . quite so . . . though I’m not always quite as convinced or . . . don’t always feel quite as led to the same perspective on
no fire with fire! LOL.
I significantly do . . . not sure if 51% or more—probably . . . just not always precisely the same perspectve . . .
I think the personal self-defensive fire with fire is virtually always in error . . . mostly . . .
But that there is a time to respond or assert on an issue with
more or less equally fierce intensity.
God is often subtle . . . evidently needs to be to avoid overwhelming us.
On the other hand . . . along with different fingers, there’s lightening, earthquakes, . . . and birds of rare plumage . . . LOL.
Agreed.
Wonderful and humorous post, hosepipe. I think most of us can relate. His grace is sufficient for all our troubles and tribulations. His wonderful salvation is for all who call upon the Name of the Lord.
Amen; Oh! what grace.. what marvelous class.. the BIG GUY has..
I'm just sayin, you know what I mean?..
Thank you for all of your wonderful good-natured insights!
Have you ever considered that some persecutions you face are because you’re NOT following the will of God?
I can testify that before I came back to the Catholic Church that there were persecutions that came my way to lead me away from protestant beliefs.
The point is that not every persecution is what you might want to believe
It's everywhere. You have said over and over again that God has changed His mind and gone in new directions based on the decisions of men (i.e. the Jews failed and so God then turned to the Gentiles, etc.). In addition, the Church holds that references to predestination in scriptures all mean that God foresees who will accept Him, and then declares that they are the elect. Man leads and God follows. Further, your Church claims that your clergy and your clergy alone can request that God do certain things and God will ALWAYS do those things EVEN IF the priest is unworthy (supernatural powers). I can't ask God to enter another person with any full expectation that God will follow my lead, but your clergy claims exactly that ability, etc.
The Church teaches that God gave man (limited) freedom to use (in His likeness) in exercising dominion over earth (in His image), not to "thwart" God.
According to your Church, every single time a person does not choose God, he thwarts God's will. You can't have it both ways. Either man is free to thwart God's will or he isn't. Your side says man is free to determine his own destiny. Therefore, he must be free to control whether God gets what He says He wants.
I don't mean this in hyperbole. I don't think your side believes that man is more powerful than God. I think your side believes that God has relinquished sufficient power to men such that God will follow where man leads Him on certain issues, very important ones, and that you believe God says that is just fine with Him. God creates everything, but He has decided to pass the buck on the decision of who will enter Heaven to be with Him forever. According to the Church, God believes that it should be man who makes that decision, and God will submit to whatever will that is.
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