Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
“So... you will tell us what we are to believe and if we don’t believe you, and or the men you follow,there is no place in your Christianity for the rest of us?”
That’s hardly my call, 1000 s and it is certainly not my place to tell you what to believe. I know there is a place in The Church for all people, but that place requires a metanoia which most find far too difficult to undertake. I cannot say what consequences that failure or refusal might have.
B-D,
That sentence, especially the prepositional phrase I have bolded, brings me up short. If we could forego that level of specificity, I'd say that the Holy Spirit is involved in every perception of truth, from "The Sky is blue," through "2+2=4" and "I love you, Daddy," to "Courage is beautiful, excellence is difficult" to "Jesus Christ is Lord."
"The Spirit of the Lord has filled the whole world, and that which holds all things together knows what is said," (Sapientiae I:7) would be the tag.
I don't commit to the Church FOR salvation, but All who do so, do so in (or by, or one of them pesky prepositions) the Spirit, I would say.
“But y’all really have eroded that historical sense of mine a lot more than I’d have preferred.”
Q...I know that you of all people here would not have wished to labor under any misapprehension of fact concerning Orthodoxy. Now that you have seen a bit more about Orthodoxy as reflected in a very, very fallen devotee like me, you probably should adjust your opinion. How and to what is entirely your province, Q.
pssst! It's "stock", "Stock of a tree". You know, like shares of Weyerhauser, or Georgia Pacific or somesuch.
LoL.. you must be a special dark colored precious stone... I LIKE THAT...
Our self pride interferes with this and God does not force us. This goes for those who profess to be Catholic and do not follow the teachings of the Church
Divisions are not of Christ.
I think it is inaccurate to characterize us Calflicks as saying, "and if [you] don't believe [us], and or the men [we] follow,there is no place in [our]Christianity for the rest of [you]."
If you are baptized with water and in the name of the Trinity, you have a place in the Church. I am not saying anything about the place of those who are NOT baptized with water and in the name of the Trinity.
There is a disagreement. Many of you hold, I think, that if we believed more of what you believe and less of what we believe we would be happier and less guilt-driven and hag-ridden and do more good and imperil our souls less with idolatries and blasphemies and the rest. And RCs think that if you came into communion with the See of Rome and availed yourself of the teachings and sacraments you would would be happier and do more good and imperil your souls less with self-worship and blasphemies and the rest.
That doesn't mean we think there is no place in the Church for you, or that you are in come kind of communion with the Church right now.
I don't know where the orthodox are on the baptized who are not Orthodox. But I suspect that they join with us filthy papists in trusting in God's saving will.
In the past my posts of this kind have generally been responded to with startling hostility and/or condescension. I'm bracing myself.
“pssst! It’s “stock”, “Stock of a tree”. You know, like shares of Weyerhauser, or Georgia Pacific or somesuch.”
See, MD, I can’t even get my idolatry straight! Well, what are you gonna do?
You HAVE to read Dante. Hell is so full of Popes they raised the rental rates.
Sure they are.. Jesus never for-bade forming clubs..
The Sheep Pens in John ch10.. testifies to that..
Jesus is the GATE and "some" follow his voice "OUT" of them..
BUT the sheep pens are pens for SHEEP.. NOT goats..
The metaphor is intact..
Oh! yes Dawg.. you are another rare precious stone...
“I don’t know where the orthodox are on the baptized who are not Orthodox. But I suspect that they join with us filthy papists in trusting in God’s saving will.”
My Arabic speaking co religionists say “Inshallah”. So even if you papists bathe, we’ll leave it at that!
Dear HP,
This says nothing about Christ NOT WANTING us to be united.
“I believe the Holy Spirit would guide us to the Catholic Church and we would all be united in one”
“I’d say that the Holy Spirit is involved in every perception of truth,”
So we all agree that the Holy Spirit leads individual believers, not just communities or special offices.
"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." and earlier "... no one can say "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (pronounced by Fr. Carl Naro as "HOOLy Spirit".)
Ask my wife: Clearly the only proper leading of the Spirit for ME is to obey. Diversities of gifts, y'know: "Whatever you say, dear."
But with that all blathered out, where are you takin' us, boss?
According to the metaphor in John ch 10 those that COME OUT of the sheep pens ARE united for that is the flock.. Those in the sheep pens are merely clubbers or religionists..
The flock was/is/ and always been united.. various sheep pens are just "holding pens".. for those needing to hear his voice.. I know, I know that doesnt leave a lot of room for clergy.. But Oh! Well..
The Holy Spirit certainly always leads us to love, but the Holy Spirit DOES NOT lead those to teach against the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.
That type of spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit.
I wish you a Blessed Evening
“What was THAT? I think I heard a snare whistling past my ears ....”
The point was not “where you believe the Holy Spirit leads the individual” but that the Holy Spirit does lead individuals. Where or how are different questions.
Okay. 10-4. But is that controversial? We're just nailing down the starting point, right? Holy Spirit leads and interacts with idiwiddles. Check!
Of course.
Whenever we see unconditional love, it is the Holy Spirit.
It can be a Muslim, a protestant,a Jew etc...
The problem I see is that those claiming to be in the Holy Spirit in their individual interpretations of scripture and forming various communities when they don’t agree with each other.
There can only be one Holy Spirit of truth
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