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Conclusion from Peru and Mexico
email from Randall Easter | 25 January 2008 | Randall Easter

Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg

January 25, 2008

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: evangelism; mexico; peru; reformed; truth
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To: irishtenor

*** The Church received the NT which the Apostles and others wrote with the help of the Holy Spirit.***

The Church decided on the NT (as well as the Old). It decided which versions and which translations of which books were Scriptural, which were good but not Scriptural and which were to be discarded.

We have either the Christian Church or Gnosticism. There is no other way outside of atheism.


2,301 posted on 02/19/2008 10:49:28 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; xzins; P-Marlowe; ..
Mark, are you having an "Obama moment?"

When your entire post is just one big, word-for-word swipe from the footnotes of the New American Bible, you should acknowledge that the sentences you are posting were written by someone else...

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE
U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
(as used by MakBSnr without attribution)

Regardless, none of your post (lifted verbatim from footnotes in the New American Bible) changes the fact that Paul tells us we can do nothing to earn our salvation; it is all of mercy, and not debt.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:4-5


2,302 posted on 02/19/2008 11:01:22 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr; blue-duncan; wmfights; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Gamecock; Quix; ...
Thank you oh so very much for those beautiful Scriptures, dear sister in Christ!

Here’s another – emphasis mine wrt Christ being crucified and faith:

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying], He trusted on the LORD [that] he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help. Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

My praise [shall be] of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom [is] the LORD'S: and he [is] the governor among the nations. All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done [this]. – Psalms 22

To God be the glory!

2,303 posted on 02/19/2008 11:06:38 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50

*&**Where does it say in the Bible the NT was received with the Help of the Holy Spirit?***

Even if it did say it you wouldn’t believe it. You don’t believe the Bible is the word of God, so, why even argue with you. In fact, I don’t even know why YOU are arguing about it.


2,304 posted on 02/19/2008 11:20:59 AM PST by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: kosta50

***The first to “canonize” the Christian Bible was Marcion, a heretic, who rejected all but Paul’s Epistles and parts of Acts, and rejected the rest of the NT and all of Old Testament.***

And you reject all the epistles and the OT and everything except the 4 gospels (ands you even question those). What does that make you?


2,305 posted on 02/19/2008 11:23:48 AM PST by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Hi, sister.

I see the Catholics have made the error of finding “Christ crucified” in the OT. If we simply let them walk down that path, then Catholics can kiss the Trinity good-bye. And, I see they are still enamoured with their working their way to heaven.

They would be well advised that “Abraham believed” and THAT was accounted to him for righteousness. The wonder of it all is that there is a profound link between belief and faith. True belief is much more than a simple acknowledgement, the kind of belief that demons have and tremble about. You cannot have belief without that faith/ trust. This is why we read that Abraham trusted God even when the LORD told him to kill his son.

If only Catholics, who walk the “Roman” road, would actually learn the book of Romans. They really need to abandon their false Magesterium and embrace the true faith from God. They need Sola Fide, the true gospel of faith:

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”


From the dawn of time to the end thereof, the saints have walked by faith. Jesus Christ is the sum and substance of OT Biblical prophecy, as you note in your post. The giving of the Law was to bring us to Christ; to teach us faith. It does not matter that the saints did not believe in a Crucified and Risen Lord for salvation. They believed as we do: in the revelation from God to us. I do not think Abraham knew that he was the image of the Father, raising the knife over his own Son when he was in the act. Nevertheless, Abraham believed as do we. It is our righteousness.

Let the Catholics think their works are worth something if they must. They will be ashamed of them one day when they finally cling to Christ alone by faith alone to the glory of God alone.

post tenebras lux


2,306 posted on 02/19/2008 11:27:15 AM PST by Lord_Calvinus
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To: MarkBsnr
I thought that you claimed knowledge, not belief.

lol. Just because you've read Webster's definition of "gnostic" and thus have some vague understanding of gnosticism as having something to do with "knowledge," this does not mean all "knowledge" is incorrect or gnostic.

Some knowledge is actually God-given. And by this God-given knowledge we have faith in Christ alone because God has renewed our minds and quickened our hearts to understand this truth. Like Paul, we know whom we have believed.

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth...

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -- Romans 10:1-4;13


"And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another." -- Romans 15:14


"That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge" -- 1 Corinthians 1:5


"Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place." -- 2 Corinthians 2:14


"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." -- 2 Corinthains 4:6


"By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned" -- 2 Corinthians 6:6


"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him" -- Ephesians 1:17


"And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment" -- Philippians 1:9


"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" -- Philippians 3:8


"And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him...

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord...

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ." -- Colossians 3:10,16,23-24


2,307 posted on 02/19/2008 11:37:51 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr

***We have either the Christian Church or Gnosticism. There is no other way outside of atheism.***

You are correct, YOU have either the church of knowledge.

I have Jesus Christ as my savior. It is he who saved me from my sins, it is he who changed me from death to life everlasting, it is he who took my broken body and gave me life. The church did none of those. If your church is able to do that, Halleluyah. My God did it for me. Worship your church if that makes you happy. I will worship God the Father, through Jesus Christ his Son, by the power and help of the Holy Spirit. Worship your idols, worship your church, enjoy your life, as long as it lasts.


2,308 posted on 02/19/2008 11:38:25 AM PST by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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To: Lord_Calvinus
If only Catholics, who walk the "Roman" road, would actually learn the book of Romans. They really need to abandon their false Magesterium and embrace the true faith from God. They need Sola Fide, the true gospel of faith...

"Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."

From the dawn of time to the end thereof, the saints have walked by faith. Jesus Christ is the sum and substance of OT Biblical prophecy, as you note in your post. The giving of the Law was to bring us to Christ; to teach us faith. It does not matter that the saints did not believe in a Crucified and Risen Lord for salvation. They believed as we do: in the revelation from God to us. I do not think Abraham knew that he was the image of the Father, raising the knife over his own Son when he was in the act. Nevertheless, Abraham believed as do we. It is our righteousness.

Let the Catholics think their works are worth something if they must. They will be ashamed of them one day when they finally cling to Christ alone by faith alone to the glory of God alone. post tenebras lux

AMEN, Brother!

"Through thee will we push down our enemies: through thy name will we tread them under that rise up against us.

For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.

But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.

In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah." -- Psalm 44:5-8


2,309 posted on 02/19/2008 11:48:26 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr
In one paragraph you said that faith brings salvation.

I have never said that, nor would I. Election precedes belief. Regeneration precedes faith.

You're misstating my post again, and for the second time I am clarifying my post for your understanding.

If a man has faith, it is because God has given him faith.

And that faith is an emblem of that man's election by God from before the foundation of the world.

It seems to be your habit that you reply "gotcha!" at the slightest provocation. If that's what floats your boat, go right ahead.

God alone determines the names of His family. He alone adopts fallen men into His household. He alone gives eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart with which to believe.

The church does not confer salvation. Men do not save themselves. Salvation is of the Lord. It's all His call.

Grace is unmerited, or else it is a debt owed, and God is beholden to no man.

2,310 posted on 02/19/2008 12:01:14 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: hosepipe

***TRUE... it is a propaganda hit piece.. Written so that people in future times could not re-write history.. Written as a memorial to heinous suffering and malfeasance.. ***

John Foxe is anxious to prove firstly the complete hatefulness, evil and corruption of the Catholic church, the papacy and the monastic orders, and secondly to assert the right of the monarch to appoint bishops and clergy, and to dispose of church property and income at will. Everything (and that means everything) which supports this view goes in; everything which does not is either left out, glossed over, or rejected as ipso facto untrue because asserted by his opponents. If his sources support his prejudices, his credulity knows no bounds; he is as ready to peddle the myth of Jewish blood-sacrifices of Christian children as he is to believe in the foundation of the church in England by Joseph of Arimathea.

Are you supporting appointments of bishops by kings? Are you with those who believe in a creed bought and paid for by the English and Scottish parliaments? Do you believe that the Anglo Saxons and Celts were greater theologists than the Apostles?

***The testimony that the Roman Catholic Church was a Cultic aberation during certain times in its history is recorded elsewhere as well.. i.e. Millers Church History.. Halles handbook.. ***

Copies of propaganda hit pieces do not testify as to their accuracy.

There are many websites that say variations on the same theme on many subjects including global warming. They all agree to one extent or another. And, similarly, they are all wrong.


2,311 posted on 02/19/2008 12:03:59 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Wow! Thank you for Psalm 22! What incredible evidence for the power and the consistency of God's word.

Christ concealed in the Old Testament; Christ revealed in the New Testament.

As God wills.

2,312 posted on 02/19/2008 12:05:32 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: hosepipe

Do you not pay attention to history at all?

There were not enough Bibles to supply every church; how could they have been given out en masse?

The Church couldn’t keep up on supplying Bibles. How could they have supplied the manpower to translate Scripture into several dozen different languages?


2,313 posted on 02/19/2008 12:06:29 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: irishtenor
I have Jesus Christ as my savior. It is he who saved me from my sins, it is he who changed me from death to life everlasting, it is he who took my broken body and gave me life. The church did none of those. If your church is able to do that, Halleluyah. My God did it for me. Worship your church if that makes you happy. I will worship God the Father, through Jesus Christ his Son, by the power and help of the Holy Spirit. Worship your idols, worship your church, enjoy your life, as long as it lasts.

AMEN!

2,314 posted on 02/19/2008 12:07:54 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50; irishtenor
Where does it say in the Bible the NT was received with the Help of the Holy Spirit?

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God" -- Ephesians 6:17

2,315 posted on 02/19/2008 12:12:07 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr
[ Copies of propaganda hit pieces do not testify as to their accuracy. ]

Free Republic specializes in hit pieces toward the democrat party and liberal social manipulation, and leftist tilt of all sorts.. Socialism is Slavery by Government and is caused by democracy which is Mob Rule by mobsters or Tribal Law(Sharia)..

Evil sources need to be sniped and mocked.. else the naieve will swallow the swill of devisive propaganda.. The sheeple are in effect sheep.. food for political predators..

I respect Roman Catholics that admit the gross error of the past.. However they are rare.. Roman Catholic history omits most of it, except for minor errors.. Other sources need to be consulted.. which is doable..

2,316 posted on 02/19/2008 12:19:26 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: MarkBsnr
[ The Church couldn’t keep up on supplying Bibles. How could they have supplied the manpower to translate Scripture into several dozen different languages? ]

Where their is a will their is a way.. But the desire to even do that was missing.. The reformers had no problem with doing it.. why not the RC church with all its resources..

2,317 posted on 02/19/2008 12:23:07 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights
I have actually been wrestling with your consistent use of the term "a priori" and how to deal with it. So far, I have assumed that by that term you mean "just made up", as in "blind faith" based on nothing.

It simply means accepting something beforehand. In otherwords, an assumption.

I looked at several online dictionaries for the definition of "a priori" and one thought I believed to be in consensus was this: "not in accordance with previously established fact". Wow, for these purposes, that's pretty loaded.

You bet it is. And people who depend on this presumption as the starting point don't even realize it how blatant it is.

when the Bible speaks over and over again, from God's lips

My point exactly. Assuming, as a matter of fact (whereas it is blind faith) that the Bible speaks form the "lips" of God is a perfect example of the a priori acceptance. Instead of saying "We believe the Bible speaks ...from the lips of God," it is stated as a mater of fact, when factual proof cannot be established, but rather rests on one's a priori conviction.

can you really put such things in the category of "a priori"?

Of course I can. I just did. :)

No, you can't because with regard to the nature of man himself, the Bible is PERFECTLY "in accordance with previously established fact" Gal 5:19-21 : 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The a priori acceptance  here is that it is not St. Paul  speaking, but God through him.

But, FK, your own Reformed theology contradicts this: once you accept Jesus as your Savior, what you do doesn't matter as far as your assurance of inheritance of the Kingdom of God (another loaded OT term which was Christianized to mean something else), which is another a priori acceptance.

The problem is that all these claims require absolute blind faith. Gravity doesn't. No one doubts gravity. There is a qualitative difference in a priori a acceptance of biblical claims and physician reality. An a priori acceptance is a matter of choice. We choose to go to church (unless Reformers think otherwise, and feel that they are "frog marched" to go to church against their will).

Of course he is. Therefore, the totality of scripture is not "a priori". The Bible gives man the truth about himself flat out

It's not what the Bible give us about man that is a priori, but what it says about God.  We can verify what is said about man, but we must accept a priori that what is in the Bible is from "God's lips."

So, what about the faith part? The Bible speaks of ears to hear and eyes to see, and these must come from God.

No, if I wanted to give my writing credibility and convincing character without proof, I would invoke a higher power. That is just a logical human approach. 

If the proof you are looking for cannot come from God (or be disqualified), then I suppose your view could fall under that which is not "in accordance with previously established fact". The OBVIOUS RED FLAG is that you are taking the position of a committed atheist!

The comparison is only superficial and dead wrong. Just because Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in one God doesn't mean we believe the same thing. The equation (monotheism) is only superficial. Obviously, LDS and Christians, on a superficial level, share Jesus as the Savior, so saying that He is our Lord and Savior does not mean we are arguing from the position of a committed Mormon!

Atheism is in the same predicament as those who believe in God. Atheists flat out deny God without any evidence to prove their denial. Just because we don't see radio waves doesn't mean they don't exist! The only reason we all agree they exist is because we can detect them. Believers, however, claim that what they believe is absolute truth because they have the "ears and the eyes" to "detect" God!  

Faith does not require proof (by definition). That's why it is futile to try to argue faith.  If you have faith, you can not prove it, and you cannot be proven wrong either.

2,318 posted on 02/19/2008 1:01:42 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights
...the Bible absolutely IS a historical record of what actually happened.

Actually? I would like to see how you integrated empirical evidence of prehistoric life with that claim.

The SECOND we throw out the historicity of the Bible, then we have nothing left but to depend on men to tell us what to believe

No, we simply depend on our discovery to know what happened. We don't have to "believe" in dinosaurs, FK. We know they existed and we know they are not mentioned in the Bible. And neither is homo australopithecus; yet we know he existed too.

God is de facto locked out of the equation because how could we trust Him if He either planted lies in His word or allowed men to plant them. Or, if He really never left us a "word" at all. All that is left is a faith in men.

We are not the litmus test of God's existence. I am not under pressure to explain how come some versions of the Bibles say unrecognizable things, but I would assume that is because God either allowed it, or, conversely, because the Bible is not the word of God. One of those possibilities is correct. Take your pick.

When you say that "St. Paul couldn't have known that" you immediately delete the idea that the scriptures are God-breathed, and therefore are nothing more than earlier writings of individual Church Fathers which may or may not be correct. By definition, this would be a "low opinion of scriptures".

I don't deny that St. Paul wrote the Epistles (at least the earlier ones).  I also believe that he was moved by faith to write what he believed. Inspiration by faith is not synonymous with inerrancy.  That is an a priori assumption by some.

2,319 posted on 02/19/2008 1:02:42 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; wmfights
Is it really your view that Christ thought of all Gentiles as dogs?

He didn't say to "this dog" but to "dogs" (Canaanites) in general.

Let's see what the scriptures say about the story you bring up:

Matt 15:  If your own passage doesn't show that Christ also came to save Gentiles then I don't know what does.

The Gospel here simply expresses the standard Judaic view of the Gentiles. What Christ did was recognize that there were Gentiles who were righteous.  Such Gentiles are known in Judaism as " the righteous Gentiles" or "Noahides," or "people at the gate." And, yes, Judaism believes they are saved by tagging along with the Jews. But that was not the purpose of Messiah's coming according to Judaism. The example in Mat 15 is simply an act/work of mercy (mitzvah) that any observant Jew is expected to perform, and is part of over 600 God's commandments the Jews are expected to follow (some of them are missions, and some of them are omissions). 

Is your contention that Christ was surprised by this and made a one-time exception?

Not at all. Mitzvot (plural of mitzvah) is part of every practicing Jew's daily life.

In Christ's own words it SHOWED that the "lost sheep of Israel" included Gentiles. That is, EXACTLY as Paul said, BTW.

Nothing could be farther form the truth, FK. Your interpretation neglects the Nohaides. Chances are you never even heard of them, and how they fit into Judaism.

Kosta: We know, as a biblical fact, that the only reason the Gospels were taken to the Gentiles is because the Jews rejected them (Act 13:46).

FK: Forgive me if this sounds like a cheap shot, but I didn't think you believed much in Biblical "facts"

I don't care if the shot is cheap or not, but I do care of your reply adequately addresses my statement. In this case it doesn't. I am simply stating what the Bible says. I imagine that all those who accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God are obligated to accept as immutable truth. Acts 13:46 leave no doubt why the message was taken to the Gentiles: the Jews rejected it (and continue to reject is to this day). 

I don't mean it as a cheap shot, but it seems to me that, when the Bible doesn't agree with Protestant theology, it is ignored (cherry-picking).  Not only is there nowhere in the Gospels a verse that says Israel includes Gentiles.

St. Paul actually says that Jews are by nature somehow different from Gentiles:

"We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles" (Gal 2:15)

In any event, Acts 13:46 is a statement of PROCESS, not a declaration that God had failed and now we're going to do this

There is nothing to indicate this to be a process, FK. It's quite definitive. Nothing could pimpled form the way it is expressed to mean that sometime in the future there is hope for the Jews to change their mind.

That is, unless you want to say that God failed, or that the Bible is wrong.

It is only God's "failure" if you believe God pulls all the things and we are just lifeless puppets. If you recognize that God gave man freedom to choose, then it is not God who failed, but man. God simply keeps on giving everyone more and more chance to repent, no matter how much people keep throwing those chances away.

God intended what happened with the Jews all along

Nope. He foreknew what choices everyone would make. What we do affects us, not God. God helps those who help themselves.

SO THAT the Gospels would then be preached to the Gentiles.

If that is so, He makes no hints about this in His mission. Remember, the Gospels set the stage. Everyone else in the NT follows. What is in the Gospels is the standard against which all NT writings must be reconciled. Not the other way around.

The Bible says first to the Jew, and then ... I still can't comprehend the idea that God needed a "bailout" to save this Christianity thing that He started on earth. I mean, what sort of God is this inept?

That is Paul's gospel, FK. The "Bible" is the wrong word to sue because it misleads the reader. Paul, and only Paul says that. No one else, especially the Gospels.

Christ taught that He came to fulfill OT Law, and that not a single jot or tittle of that Law would pass away until He had completed His mission. Christ also included Gentiles within the body of those He ministered to

Not as part of His mission and ministry.

2,320 posted on 02/19/2008 1:05:26 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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