Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Do you honestly believe that the Holy Spirit would want people to be divided into thousands of different splinter groups of protestant denominations with various beliefs opposite with each other all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit?
This seems to be a God of confusion.
Who do you think wants confusion?
No amigo, it is the self-attestation of the Scripture itself that I trust.
***if their “theology” as you say, does not jive with yours, the likelihood of your theology being wrong is great.***
While you may be deluded into thinking that along the time continuum the early fathers were homogeneous in their theology I hold no such delusions. My theology needs to “jive” with the prophets and apostles who were the ones who received the revelation. The fathers merely interpreted revelation and where they interpreted correctly I agree and where they misinterpreted I throw it out with the garbage.
***The fact is that none of the Scriptures are signed by the Apostles***
This is an instructive statement as it goes to show the discursive thinking of the heirarchialist. At the bottom of “Catholic” thinking is a reliance on old Enlightenment epistemology's that believe that truth may only be obtained only through empirical evidence. This debunked epistemology tries to build a foundation on sand and as the edifice grows more and more false premises are tossed out to protect the leaning tower. The statement above is just one of many laughable premises used to try to prop up the theology of glory.
***only scraps remain.***
Enough scraps to put the whole revelation together along with scraping the redacted Latin Vulgate.
No one has claimed any authorship of any of what we now consider NT writings until after 150 AD. No one ever quoted a verse and identified the Apostle who was believed to have written it. St. Justin Martyr makes first mention only of "apostolic memoirs." Are memoirs scriptures?
Even the Church Fathers, close to the end of the second century AD, did not presume that the Gospels and Epistles were written by God (although I am sure they believed the authors were "moved" or "inspired" by Him), as they began to assign apostolic authorship to the extant manuscripts read in churches.
In assigning authorship to those manuscriptsd, the Church did not fall the sin of presumption and called them outright "the Gospel of Matthew" for example, but simply used the words kata, which means according to, i.e. Kata Maththaion, According to Matthew. Which is to say it is a narrative of Christ's ministry as seen (since he was a witness, like St. John) and remembered (since it was written 30 years after Christ, 60 years in John's case) by the Apostle. In the case of St. Mark and St. Luke, the same would mean "as told by others" (since they were not eye witnesses) and remembered (since both were written decated after Christ).
They even titled the Book of Revelation Apokalypsis Ioannu or The Revelation of John. Which some have found "incorrect" and renamed to John, and some have simply renamed the whole thing as the Revelation of Christ.
So, if we can't even trust the Church Fathers to pick the correct names of the very Bible we consider the word of God, how can we trust their collection of manuscripts as the pristine word of God considering that their pick was but bare two dozen manuscriptis out of a pool of some 200-plus books circulating in the first three centuries after Christ?
In order for the Bible to be accepted as the Scripture, it must be accepted as it was accepted by those who accepted it to begin with. For, if there is any possibility of any error in the canon, or even a title, then we cannot be sure.
Either the decision of what will be in the canon and how it will read is an infallible decision or it is not. If it is infallible, then the Revelation of John stands whether we understand it or not, and the Church remains the correct interpreter of the Scripture. If it is fallible, then none of it stands. Take your pick.
A deceiver.
Self-attestation to oneself? Ever heard of solipsism? It's akin to Gnosticism. It's a self-worship of kinds. The self is the alpha and the omega of reality and truth.
The fathers merely interpreted revelation and where they interpreted correctly I agree and where they misinterpreted I throw it out with the garbage
Because your self knows what they interpreted correctly and what they misinterprted? You know better than they do? Yet they were trustworthy enough to put that Bible together for you? SDomehow they knew what was scirputre, but some just didn't know how to interpret it correclty!? Oh boy!
IOW, it doesn't matter whether the thread is about religion, philosophy or science - when our correspondents demand physical or logical "proof" then we know the words of God are not registering in power to them - which is to say, His words are not being Spiritually heard.
Or to put it another way, the power of God is not understood by observing His miracles but rather by the hearing of the words of God.
Israel had experienced many miracles - the delivery from bondage in Egypt through mighty miracles, the parting of the Red Sea, the manna and water and so on. Even their clothes and shoes did not wear away over forty years. But they did not have the "ears to hear" - the gift of God that we have - so observing all those miracles did not avail them as we can see below and in the prophesy of the Song of Moses.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5
They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. - Deuteronomy 32:21
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. - Romans 10:19
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. - Revelation 15:3
Instead, the words of God are spirit and life - but only to those who have been given "ears to hear."
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:10-11
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:13-16
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. - I Corinthians 1:18-25
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. - 2 Timothy 2:14-19
To God be the glory!
And what do bible believers have to offer? Miracles? Next time you are sick, don't seek solution from epistemiologists whose healing skills come from reliable and repeatable empirical evidence. Rely on miracles instead.
Enough scraps to put the whole revelation together
Miniscule shreds, copies of copies of copies, by different authors, written at different times, full of transcribing errors, without any authentication. The earliest complete bibles are a mess to put it plainly, a mix of different text-types and hundreds of variants. By the 9th century the only complete single-text-type bible was the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus. All others were a mix of text-types, some missing sections or whole chapters, even books in their entirety from their volumes.
But why would we want to know such evidence based facts when we can just assume the bible dropped from the sky just as we have it today?
And speaking of "debunked epistemology" which "tries to build a foundation on sand and as the edifice grows more and more false premises are tossed out to protect the leaning tower" what do you make of prehistoric fossils and finds? How do you fit them into your bible? Or is it Satan planting them in the ground in order to deceive us? LOL!
Speaking of sand, the only thing that's in it are the heads of fundamentalists who pretend the sun doesn't shine.
As though the EOC and RCC edifices
demonstrated virtually no confusion
GTTM
GTTM
ROTFLOL!
VERY EXCELLENT POINTS.
Thanks for the ping.
It’s called modernists scripture scholarship.
They look to themselves as being the pillar and foundation of truth.
In other words.. It’s the prideful worship of self mind!
Off to Mass.
By presuming to be the mouthpieces of God.
So, if man is in control, that is NOT prideful
Being free is not a presumption of pride. We are not robots.
I am fully confident as well [that all of the elect on these threads could point out how they've changed over the years. How the desire to do bad things has diminished–wmfights].
A change in human desire can happen for many reasons. Wew don't necessarily know why we change in the course of a lifetime.
But to some, our testimonies must be thrown out in toto, because they do not rise to the level of "proof" required by some who do not believe in such phenomena.
Yes, it burns you doesn't it, because if you had proof you would be the first to post it! So, you dismiss it. Conveniently. It's funny how we demand proof for everything else in life except what we believe. Amazing.
And it is not that "some of us" do not believe in such a phenomenon (i.e. that we can become kinder, gentler creatures, and whish to do unto others as we would others do unto us), but that some of us are honest enough to say "I really don't know why this change took place but if it is from God, I thank Him from the bottom of my heart."
Short of a personal visit by God through a burning bush experience, I do not think that proof exists for these people in what we are talking about.
If you have no proof, then it is an assumption. If you believe an assumption, then it is a belief and not a fact. You are free to believe whatever you want. My only objection is when people present what they believe in (for whatever reason) as a matter of fact. That goes for Calvinsits as well as the Orthodox, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Shinto, Hindus, etc.
Self and self-serving.
Or to put it another way, the power of God is not understood by observing His miracles but rather by the hearing of the words of God.
AMEN! And it sure does get tiresome at times. But that's just the way God wants it for now. One way or the other, it is all for His glory.
"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." -- 1 Corinthians 11:19
Even the bad stuff has its God-given purpose. Knowing that makes proclaiming the Gospel among tares easier because we're told the wheat outnumber them, if not in number than certainly in strength and purpose. Ultimately, it's a wheat field and not a tares field, although some days that fact is barely recognizable.
Your example of the Jews is exactly what Paul lamented -- they believed in one God but not in Christ, and so they were blinded to the truth, and their blindness should make us even more circumspect and grateful. So close, and yet, so far.
the words of God are spirit and life - but only to those who have been given "ears to hear."
The power of God is Jesus Christ, the Living Word of God. When we convey the words of God and our testimony - we have done the very best we can do for anyone.
AMEN!. And Paul's words from Timothy describe life perfectly and offer a perfect response to those without ears to hear and whose hearts remain stone...
"... they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers...Study to shew thyself approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth...shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker...Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his."
AMEN.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world." -- John 17:17-18"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
If God has sent us into the world equipped with "the whole armour of God" and the "breastplate of righteousness" and "the shield of faith" and the "helmet of salvation" and the "sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God," (Ephesians 6) what do we have to fear?
All in all, a perfect plan from the very start, from before the foundation of the world.
The Bible is the "mouthpiece of God" and the ability to hear and understand that "mouthpiece" is given by God alone through the work of the Holy Spirit.
You invest the title of "mouthpiece of God" in fallible men when God tells us His "every word is pure" and leads to a correct understanding of His will and our lives within that will.
It's just not that difficult, but men enjoy making it seem difficult. Probably because for some of them, it is difficult and very near impossible to understand.
As God wills.
If you have to go off-line and into your own website to make your case, without any provision for rebuttal or inspection, then may God bless you , Mad Dawg. You do what you have to do. We'll leave the lights on.
And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down. Then I saw, and considered it well: I looked upon it, and received instruction." -- Proverbs 24:3-=32"I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;
AMEN! So very true.
And what is the source of this "pure" word of God? The Bible? The same bible that exists in thousands (literally) of versions, in different text-types, of different length of chapters, with all the omissions or deletions or additions or errors? Why, next thing you will tell me will be that God drop-shipped KJV to Luther, Calvin and Zwigli with instrustions how to interpret it. LOL! Talk about dark ages! Get real.
Yes, I completely agree. If we just enforced the laws already on the books, then the illegals here would go home and there would be no incentive for any more to come. That is, except for drug dealers and terrorists, etc. That's why I still think we need a wall.
The local and state and federal governments are further aiding unethical and greedy businesses which illegally hire illegal aliens, by not enforcing existing laws on the books that call for stiff penalties for those who hire illegal aliens.
Yes, and I find that very puzzling. While I consider myself a general supporter of President Bush, he has utterly failed to show any real interest in protecting and securing our borders. Nor has he showed any interest in enforcing existing laws. All of this is despite his own rhetoric. I have tried to figure out why he is doing this and nothing adds up.
If he thinks that an amnesty path to citizenship under Republican rule will magically translate into 15 million new Republican voters he is delusional. :) However, if he is doing this for business interests then he should just do it the "law and order" Republican way and convince the people that his amnesty plan is best for the country. We know he has failed in his attempts so far, but he's not going to convince me to change my mind by using these wholly "un-Republican-like" tactics. We are supposed to be the party that takes the law seriously.
All that because of greedy capitalists and corrupt government officials who do not apply the law, some bargain-hunters notwithstanding. With about 13 million illegals, how many potential al-Qaida terrorists could have slipped in? Why, 1% would be an army of 130K! Sobering.
It is very sobering indeed. I actually would have no problem with reforming the current immigration policies to make it easier and speedier. We just have to know who these people are and what their intentions are. I have the greatest honor and respect for all those who ARE following the rules and waiting their turns in line. They must remain in front, and if there is reform, those who continue to break the rules should be forever banned.
Rather than build walls that never kept anyone from entering or escaping, the solution is to cut the demand by discouraging greedy and unethical businesses from hiring illegals with stiff fines as prescribed by the law, and firing the corrupt government officials who do not enforce such laws at the present time.
You know by now that I am pro-wall. :) I think that a double wall plus technology plus adequate personnel will keep the vast majority of cheaters out. Nothing would be perfect, but I think it would work to a great degree. I also think we need a wall because without one, i.e. if we just increase personnel, then our security will always be at the whim of whoever is in office. If President Bush stationed a man at every half mile along the whole border, then the next Democrat elected would just pull them off and we're back to open borders. Once a wall is in place it's there. No one is going to spend the money to tear it down in the foreseeable future.
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