Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
Yes they did mean it to be a Judaized version of Aramaic known as Chaldee, which was the spoken language of the 1st century Palestinian Jews, derived from Syriac (i.e. Aramaic), and sometimes called Judeo-Aramaic by some scholars.
Aramaic is not a single language but a group of related languages used by different tribes and cultures. References to Syriac in the pre-Babylonian period do refer to the language of Syria, that is Aramaic, which was not spoken by the Hebrews at that time.
That language began to be used by the Jews circa 7th century BC for official correspondence several centruies, the languges used by the Jewish homes. Both Targum (Tanakh) and Talmud are written in Chaldee Aramaic, which the Greeks call Hebraisti.
The Jews themsleves do not call OT Hebrew "Hebrew" (the proepr name Hebrew is Ibriy in Hebrew) but Yehudith. The Greeks (see 2 King 18:26 LXX) call the latter (OT Hebrew) Ioudaisti. Ioudaisti does not appear in the New Testament! Only Hebraisti does.
Unfortunately, Latin and subsequent translators translated Hebraisti as "Hebrew" because it was spoken by the 1st century Hebrews! And thence it went into the west as an error and now, after having been repeated enough times, it becomes the "gold standard" of truth!
St. Augustine (whose Greek was marginal) errnenously translated a section of Sirach as Qui vivit in eternum, creavit omnia simul which means "He that lives eternally created all things together" as "he who lives eternally created all thing at once!" Such one-word errors can have destastrous consequences over many repetitions. And such is the case with numerous other examples.
You keep treating Latin translations as accurate renditions of the Greek text when this is cleary not so. Hebraisti does not mean OT Hebrew. It means Chaldee Aramaic. The OT Hebrew is Ioudaisti in Greek.
No, you will find exactly that. The NIV does not call NT language of the Jews "Hebrew" but (correctly) Aramaic. It doesn't mean you won't find Aramaic words inserted with the Greek text as the other poster seems to imply.
I mneant to include you in #1418. Sorry
This somehow became "truncated." The correct version was:
"That language began to be used by the Jews circa 7th century BC for official correspndence at first, then the marketplace and then if finally, after several centuries, it became the languges used in Jewish homes."
So then the Jews in Israel today aren't speaking and writing in Hebraisti -- Hebrew?????
The NIV doesn't always translate the word 'Hebrew' as 'Aramaic'.
It doesn't do so in Rev.9:11 and 16:16.
Let's be clear here: Chaldee is often erroneously called by modern scholars as eastern Aramaic when it is really "Akkadic" not Aramaic. The term "Aramaic", though thrown around erroneously by pseudo scholars, means "Syriac" -- neither Chaldee [Akkadic] nor Hebrew -- although all of these are closely related. The Hebrew that Moses and the prophets and chroniclers of the OT wrote in had a lot of Chaldean words in it --- but it was still called HEBREW, whether it is spelled Ibriy or Hebraisti -- HEBREW nonetheless.
***We, too, believe in works, but not as a means to salvation, but because God gives us things to do. One of the misconceptions is that the Reformed (the Elect, as it were) need not tell others about Christ because God already knows who the elect are. ***
Very true about the hyper Calvinists. I have met some in passing and, as you may be able to tell, didn’t exactly hit it off. :)
***Though I do not know your situation, I do think you have a heart for God. Continue is the works of love, joy, compassion, and witnessing to others. Rejoice in the Lord!***
Wonderful sentiments and I thank you for them. I do rejoice in the Lord, not least because He has rewarded me far beyond my deserving, and in spite of my state of sin.
***I question what you believe in though. Your Saviour doesn’t seem to be the same Saviour that finished it all at Calvary. Your Saviour only got part of the job done. You have to commit to a lifetime of works in the hope that when you die you’ve done enough and been good enough to be saved.***
We have the faith of our fathers, going right back to the Apostles at Pentecost. We don’t get to make the rules. If we are commanded to do, then we must do. We do not have the option. We are to be Judged. If we have done nothing to be Judged by, then we are instructed that we will be thrown into everlasting hell.
***That IS correct, but they didn’t protest against God. They were trying to get the church back to God.***
The overwhelming reason that the Reformation succeeded was that the German and other Western European princes and other nobles used it as a power play for assuming regional power.
Calvin even parlayed his portion of the Reformation into becoming the feudal tyrant of Geneva.
Targums were not the Tanakh. Targums were an oral paraphrase delivered in Aramaic [Syriac], extemporaneously by word of mouth, unofficially, varying from synagogue to synagogue, not originally committed to writing until well into the Christian period, and only given by word of mouth after the reading of the Tanakh in Hebraisti [Hebrew].
Chaldee Aramaic
It is either Chaldee [Akkadic] or Aramaic [Syriac]. It cannot be both. Make up your mind --
“According to the Gospels, Jesus received His following precisely because of the miracles and not by preaching Moses. If He didn’t perform the miracles why would anyone have believed Him?”
They didn’t believe him even with the miracles until the only miracle that mattered; the resurrection. It authenticated who he was and what he said. All the other miracles were just, in the words of Mel Brooks’ Frankenstein, “doo-doo”, if the resurrection had not taken place.
The world looked on the miracles selfishly for personal satisfaction, entertainment and financial well being. It did not occur to them that they were manifestations of the proximity of the kingdom.
Jhn 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long [season], because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Truly, we should never be troubled when anyone pastes the labels “Gnostic” or “secret knowledge” on us.
In the first place, it is God’s will that only those He has blessed with “ears to hear” will hear the Word of God. Truth is hidden in plain view. In effect, they paste the label on God Himself.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:13-16
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65
Among them are those who perceive of Jesus Christ as language-challenged or of God lacking the power to perform His own words including to protect much less authenticate His own words. In effect, such theologians love their own reasoning more than anything or anyone else, including God.
By contrast, we who are personally indwelled by the Spirit know the power of God personally and that the words of God are not mere language symbols but are alive – that they are spirit and they are life.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. – Matthew 5:18
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10
So whenever those labels are used to revile us, I submit we ought to be joyful.
Wouldn’t that be called “Maso-Catholicism”?
= = =
I suppose it would depend on whether one was
the actor
or the
actee.
. . . . the abuser of history and Biblical truth . . . or the victim.
Doing what we can with heart, faith and love . . . first and foremost toward God and His priorities—which happen to include others . . .
IS, I think,
the most anyone can ask of us.
Yes, our beliefs OFTEN [not always, it seems to me] include at least aspects of assumptions. But some are based more wholesale on assumptions hanging on sky hooks than others.
God be with you and yours this Resurrection Sunday Season.
“In opposition to (Rome,) Hodge, following the lead of Calvin, stresses the fact that the whole set of sinful man needs to be renewed by the power of the Holy Spirit. The natural man must be “renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him” (Col. 3:10)...
= =
Billy Graham once wrote that we all needed refilled with Holy Spirit daily . . . because we leak.
Thanks for your kind words.
Yet you continue to claim you are saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone. The EO are more straightforward. They will clearly state that Calvary only created the opportunity to be saved, but it's up to the individual to do the right things.
We have the faith of our fathers, going right back to the Apostles at Pentecost.
So you claim but yet so many of your practices and beliefs are inconsistant with what we see in Scripture. After all your pope claims higher authority than the Apostles. Your pope can make pronouncements that have no basis in Scripture and you must follow them. I rather trust the Apostles. They took their instruction directly from Jesus.
The Holy Spirit made sure that we would have the TRUTH by having writers record what we needed to know. Yet your fathers claim a special power of interpretation and your church claims to control God by the rituals you perform.
My faith is in my Saviour Jesus Christ. Forsaking All I Trust Him and because of this and this alone I have been blessed with God's Riches At Christ's Expense. Given the choice to trust Jesus or your church and what it claims to be true I'm going with Jesus everytime.
Some of the difference might stem from those theologians who receive the words of God as merely text or language symbols on par with other such text in ancient manuscripts. This is also known as the “historical-critical method” which attempts to be scholarly and secular by denying the power of God on principle.
Among them are those who perceive of Jesus Christ as language-challenged or of God lacking the power to perform His own words including to protect much less authenticate His own words. In effect, such theologians love their own reasoning more than anything or anyone else, including God.
By contrast, we who are personally indwelled by the Spirit know the power of God personally and that the words of God are not mere language symbols but are alive – that they are spirit and they are life.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Some of the difference might stem from those theologians who receive the words of God as merely text or language symbols on par with other such text in ancient manuscripts. This is also known as the “historical-critical method” which attempts to be scholarly and secular by denying the power of God on principle.
Among them are those who perceive of Jesus Christ as language-challenged or of God lacking the power to perform His own words including to protect much less authenticate His own words. In effect, such theologians love their own reasoning more than anything or anyone else, including God.
By contrast, we who are personally indwelled by the Spirit know the power of God personally and that the words of God are not mere language symbols but are alive – that they are spirit and they are life.
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Matthew 4:4 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
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