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To: jo kus

You’re quite knowledgable of the Bible, so I’m sure you’re equally familiar with the attempts throughout the Israeli history where God established a man as head of his church (as it was at that time), and the man continually failes. You mention Moses, have you forgotten why Moses never entered the promised land?

The Israelites kept screaming for God to appoint a man to lead them, and God continued to provide them kings that continually failed. Why would you presume that after offering Christ as a sacrifice for all, God would place the success of that monumental event into the hands of another man?

It is only man who desires man to lead the Church. God is the head, and that was the reason for Christ. If leadership of the Church was possible through humans, there would have never been a need for Christ to be crucified.

Prior to the NT, can you name a single man that was granted the powers of infalliblity by God? After tearing down the curtain, why would God quickly erect a new one in the form of mortal, and therefore sinful, leadership?

As for Galatians 1, Paul is warning against straying from diligent study of the Word with the Spirit’s guidance. He quite adroitly points out that self proclaimed councils were twisting the Word. This is a lesson that is missed in the arguement for Ecumenical Councils and Popes. Paul specifically points out that the only way the Word can be twisted is by the listening to another’s interpretation rather than doing your own diligent study. This follows very closely in line with Rabinical teachings, that the only way to know God is to encounter him directly through His Word.

Can you explain to me the difference between the Magesterium and the Levitical priests and groups that strayed from God’s word?


79 posted on 01/24/2008 11:50:13 AM PST by Deut28 (Cursed be he who perverts the justice)
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To: Deut28
Can you explain to me the difference between the Magesterium and the Levitical priests and groups that strayed from God’s word?

Not on par with Jo, but off the top of my head, "who hears you hears me", "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.", "feed my lambs tend my sheep feed my sheep," "On this rock I will build My church, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail", "Pillar and ground of truth", etc.

I don't remember anything like that in the OT, and I don't remember anyone begging for a hierarchical Church leadership, but it's pretty clear from NT scripture that that's what He gave us, and with good reason, we're all in some way, like the Ethiopian eunuch.

80 posted on 01/24/2008 12:11:23 PM PST by conservonator (spill czeck is knot my friend)
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To: Deut28; jo kus; conservonator
You’re quite knowledgable of the Bible, so I’m sure you’re equally familiar with the attempts throughout the Israeli history where God established a man as head of his church (as it was at that time), and the man continually failes.

Some more food for thought in your discussion with jo kus. Korah in Numbers 16 rose up before Moses and Aaron and said:

"Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the LORD is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the LORD'S congregation?"

When Moses heard this, he fell prostrate. Then he said to Korah and to all his band, "May the LORD make known tomorrow morning who belongs to him and who is the holy one and whom he will have draw near to him! Whom he chooses, he will have draw near him.

250 men were swallowed up by the earth because they refused to accept the authority God had invested in Moses and Aaron and thought they could do as well without such intermediaries.
81 posted on 01/24/2008 12:31:44 PM PST by Claud
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To: Deut28
You’re quite knowledgable of the Bible, so I’m sure you’re equally familiar with the attempts throughout the Israeli history where God established a man as head of his church (as it was at that time), and the man continually failes. You mention Moses, have you forgotten why Moses never entered the promised land?

First, thank you for the compliment. Secondly, it appears that God has ALWAYS worked through "clay vessels". As you no doubt can quote me, we are all sinners - and yet, God acts through "damaged vessels". In my opinion, based on 2 Cor 12, God's power is seen most clearly when working through weakness. We know the type of men Peter and Paul and Moses and Abraham and Jacob were! What is interesting is how God's people continue to place their trust in God who uses these instruments. I do agree we are not to place our trust in THEM, per sec.

Why would you presume that after offering Christ as a sacrifice for all, God would place the success of that monumental event into the hands of another man?

Salvation doesn't depend on another man, in the final analysis. I believe it is clear that God continues to reveal Himself through other men, whether they are Christain neighbors who are fine examples to us, or the Pope who fights for the unborn child in his pronouncements and against the cat-calls of the world. God works through them, and in His own way, He calls us through them. Our salvation depends on how we utilize God's graces - which at times, comes through our experiences through other people.

It is only man who desires man to lead the Church. God is the head, and that was the reason for Christ. If leadership of the Church was possible through humans, there would have never been a need for Christ to be crucified.

I disagree with that conclusion. The Acts of the Apostles clearly shows men, elders, bishops and so forth placed over their spiritual charges. The entire Pastorals is based on an authoritative model. Even in the very beginning, the Apostles held positions of authority. But none of that damages what Christ did - as Christ Himself established a community with men given the power to bind and loosen and forgive sins. The people in this community followed the apostles and those placed above them, meaning, they accepted this model as from God.

Prior to the NT, can you name a single man that was granted the powers of infalliblity by God? After tearing down the curtain, why would God quickly erect a new one in the form of mortal, and therefore sinful, leadership?

Any time a person put pen (quill?) to paper, and it was later dubbed "Scripture". And while the living leaders of Jewry were not considered "infallible" on the same level, per sec, they were presumed to have been given a higher authority. Recall what happened in Numbers 16 and the revolt against Moses? Even Jesus recognizes this God-given authority - such as Matthew 23.

As for Galatians 1, Paul is warning against straying from diligent study of the Word with the Spirit’s guidance

I apologize, could you point that out for me? Where does Paul talk about "studying the Word with the Spirit's guidance"? The "word" is Paul's teachings - which were yet unwritten traditions given by Paul to the Galatians at an earlier time! You are projecting your own ideas on how things should be onto the biblical era that is not warranted, nor does it make sense (since the NT was not written yet - so what did they "study"?)

Can you explain to me the difference between the Magesterium and the Levitical priests and groups that strayed from God’s word?

Individuals certainly strayed, but this same pedigree produced the likes of Joseph and Elizabeth, people whom are called righteous for following what they had been taught. While I am not saying that the Levites were infallible, God certainly guarded the core teachings that He wanted presented, making it available to the hearts of those who would walk by faith. The Scriptures clearly show an ongoing body of teachings culminating with Christ, fulfilled, if you will. As such, God guided that initial body of teaching, just as He did and does today.

Regards

86 posted on 01/24/2008 2:18:15 PM PST by jo kus (You can't lose your faith? What about Luke 8:13...? God says you can...)
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