“”Can’t find credible (actually, any) evidence that Athanasius held this heretical view of Christ.””
Here is what Blessed Athanasius said..
“But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Saint Athanasius -”Sermon to the Newly Baptized” ante 373 A.D.
No such thing a Roman Catholic until the 4th century.
Assuming you’re still talking about Eucharist?
Here is some of the the writings from the Early Saints before the 4th century. They all believed that the Eucharist became the real Body and Blood of Christ! Every single one of them!
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”
Saint Igantius-”Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
“Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity.”
Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians
You said...
“The term Eucharist did not take on the mystical, Gnostic notion currently held by the RCC until the 11th century”
This is an absolute lie!
Here is what ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH SAID ...
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
“Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.
You modernists fail to comprehend that God is outside of time .
Here is a repost ( I think I sent it to you by freepmail as well.)
Why do you suppose Scripture puts focus on Bread and Wine?
Genesis 14.17-20, says....
After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with them, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh, (that is the King’s Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out BREAD and wine; he was priest of God Most High. And he blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
maker of heaven and earth;
and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
This is the first time in the Bible that anyone is addressed by the word coen, the Hebrew word for priest. As a “priest of God Most High,” Melchizedek “brought out bread and wine.”
What is the connection between his priesthood and those two offerings?
What about this....
Jesus said “Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness and died...I am the living BREAD that came down from heaven...unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man you will not have life within you.”
Jesus was born in “Bethlehem” which, in Hebrew, literally means “house of Bread”
A manger was not a place where animals stayed. It was a trough where food was put to feed the animals. Mary laid Jesus in a place where food was placed
At the last supper, which was a passover meal, Jesus said “take this and eat it, this is my body.”
“I Am The BREAD of Life”
John 6:48
Scripture says “For indeed Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep this feast.” (1 Cor 5:7-8) This relates to Exodus 12:1-42. The Passover meal saved from the angel of death who was striking the first born children in Egypt. At a traditional Passover supper, the Jews ate the sacrificial lamb.
Paul is saying that this feast should continue. They don’t think that he was “re-sacrificing” Christ when he kept this feast.
We see the Eucharistic formula throughout Scripture. At table, Jesus takes . . . blesses . . . breaks . . . and gives the bread. He also took a cup of wine; after giving thanks to God, He gave it to His disciples saying, “This is My blood . . . of the [new] covenant.” Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20. This is the same formula Jesus uses during the first Eucharistic celebration after the resurrection when He encountered two disciples on the road to Emmaus (see Luke 24:13-35). When the Corinthians drift from the proper Eucharistic formula, Paul corrects them.(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
“Give us this day our daily bread.”
Matthew 6:11
This is from the prayer that Jesus taught us, the “Our Father”.
It means in totality, bread as food for our bodies and spiritual bread as food for our souls.
We are to continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Every day in every place a clean oblation is offered.
What, or who, is the sacrifice and what is a clean oblation?
It is an offering of praise to GOD, in the Holy Eucharist, the Body, and the Precious Blood of Christ. The Catholic Church offers the sacrifice of praise to GOD all over the world, every day in the Mass.
It has replaced the bloody animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.
That is why it is called a clean oblation.
In Matthew 26:26, didn’t Jesus take bread and say, “Take and eat; this is my body”?
And did he not beseech us to say in the Lords Prayer:
“Give us this day out daily bread”, (both physical for the body, and spiritual for the soul).
Matthew 6:11
How many non-Catholic ecclesial communities offer daily sacrifice, a clean oblation, as is clearly commanded for us to do by Holy Scripture? How many do not even offer sacrifice?
“Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened.
For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.”
1Corinthians 5:7
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.”
Ephesians 5:1-2
“I have received full payment, and more; I am filled, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.”
Philippians 4:18
Jesus Christ is the “food” which sustains the spiritual soul which lives forever. He is the “bread come down from heaven” as we saw in John chapter six.
Can a mere “symbol” sustain the spiritual soul to eternal life?
Since the manna was the type or symbol of the New Testament reality, that question can be answered by another basic rule of typology
“An Old Testament type (symbol) never points to a New Testament symbol, but to a reality.”
So obviously the “food which endures to eternal life” cannot be a symbol, but a New Testament reality. It also cannot be a symbol, for another reason. It would violate yet a second basic rule of typology which we have previously discussed:
“The New Testament reality is far superior to the Old Testament type.”
So does this mean that Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Eucharistic Celebration?
Again, what does Holy Scripture say?
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;”
1Peter 3:18
“The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself.”
Hebrews 7:23-27
Christ was sacrificed only once and for all time. He is both the High Priest and the victim.
Catechism of the Catholic Church # 1366
“The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper ‘on the night when he was betrayed,’ (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
(Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.)”
We must remember that GOD is outside of time. Time is a measure of change for the things He has created. Since He never changes, He Himself is outside of time.
Consequently, everything from creation, and before, and for all eternity is now with GOD, including the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is a continuous, never ending sacrifice.
How can something that never ends be repeated?
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.”
And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:58
“And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—”Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”
Matthew 9:1-8
These classic verses graphically show the connection between healing of the body and healing of the soul. Jesus first cleansed the paralytic’s soul, and then He cleansed his body. Pay especial attention to the last line. To whom was authority given? Notice that the very last word in the verses is plural.
In summery
1. The body needs physical food in order to survive or else it will die.
2. The spiritual soul needs spiritual food in order to avoid spiritual death, the separation from GOD.
3. Spiritual food cannot be a symbolic gesture, simply because a mere symbol could not possibly feed the spiritual soul. Spiritual food is as much a reality as is physical food. It is the anti type of its Old Testament type of the manna in the desert. Recall that an O.T. type never points to a N.T. symbol.
4. Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.
How can symbolism of a sacrifice be a sacrifice in itself?
5. The bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ, is that clean oblation, His sacrifice on the cross.
6. Jesus Christ was sacrificed once on the cross for all eternity.
7. Jesus Christ is both the High Priest and the victim, the Paschal Lamb of sacrifice.
8. Since He is High Priest forever (Heb 7:17), He is also the sacrificial Lamb forever (Rev 5:13-14).
9. Since GOD is outside of time, everything is now with Him. That one sacrifice at Calvary, which is always now for GOD, is made present for us during the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass.
10. The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary
You also said
“So called scraps of the true Scriptures have been gathered over the years and any Bible scholar can show you how the KJV and NASB are 98% or so compliant with the source documents.”
Prove it?
This is more nonsense. The KJV is filled with errors in translation.The NASB is even worse.
Dear Friend , Please take the time to pray and study the facts.
I wish you a Blessed evening!
Cite the non-RCC source for everything historical you claim, such as your precious 4th century Arthanasius’ belief about the heretical transubstantiation.
Where is the Bible is this recorded: “Scripture tells us that there will be offered sacrifice every day in every place, a clean oblation.”?
If, as you recognize, Christ was sacrificed once for the sin of man (and Scripture that I’ve already cited shows He sat down at the right hand of God the Father afterward), why does the RCC display Him in His moment of humiliation?
Christ is the Lamb of God forever, but He is not sacrificed forever. You just admitted He died one time for all time. Rev 5:13 & 14 do state that He continually dies for us, simply that He is and will be worshiped forever.
Yes, God is not bound by time - yet He described such things as the sacrifice of Christ in the context of time so His creatures might understand it. Hebrews 10 (cited above) shows clearly that, unlike OT priests, Christ needed not to continue to offer sacrifices. One time, in time, for all time.
Since priests are mentioned in Heb 10, why does the RCC claim saints (as the Bible calls Christians) need an earthly priest? And why call that man Father? Both of these fly in the face of God’s Word (cited earlier in this thread).
You say “The Mass is a re-presentation of that one sacrifice. We are re-presented at Calvary.” RCC doctrine that you claim as Truth says Mass and the centerpiece thereof (the Eucharist) are nor a representation, but the very body and blood of Christ. Are you not RCC? And where in Scripture are we told to be represented at Calvary?
From http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Trans.html, some good observations and questions:
When Jesus talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, he was using a metaphor (symbolic language). He often did that when He described our relationship with Him. For example, Jesus said,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” (John 10:7-9)
But we don’t make special doors that represent Jesus. And we don’t walk through them in order to be saved. And we don’t go into pastures to eat grass like sheep do.
There is another basic problem with the doctrine of transubstantiation. If consecrated bread really did turn into Jesus Christ, then this is what would happen when you took communion. You would eat the consecrated bread. Because of that, Jesus would be inside of you. But only until the bread was digested. Once the bread was gone, then Jesus would also be gone. If you only took communion at Mass on Sundays, then Jesus would be inside of you for a few hours on Sundays. The rest of the time, He would be gone.
This is not what we see in Scripture. Jesus promised to stay with us, to be with us all the time. He said,
“Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” (Matthew 28:20)
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20)
Jesus said that a time would come when we would realize that He truly lives in us, and we truly live in Him.
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20)
Jesus told us,
“Abide in me, and I in you.” (John 15:4)
According to “Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary,” the word “abide” means “to stay; to continue in a place; to dwell; sojourn; to remain”.
Wrong...It was the blood...And they weren't allowed to drink it...
The people were under the blood...The blood on the doorposts...God didn't 'pass over' the houses that ate the meal...He passed over the houses that were covered in the blood...