Posted on 01/04/2008 6:43:04 AM PST by Alex Murphy
I read a science article about a scientist who wanted to show the probablility there IS other life in the universe. First he isolated 23 factors of the planet earth absolutely necessary for life. The he began studing our current knowledge of the universe to determine how many other planets may contain all of these factors. He gave up when he ascertained that another planet with even 5 or 6 of these factors was essentially a statistical impossibility.
Though we've never been able to figure out how life began, thus also to discover it's ends.
I mentioned that I'd take Pascal's Bet, in which the odds are far better than the atheist's none.
It was a fool's errand anyway. We don't know why or how life formed on Earth. Using my lottery analogy, it would be like a scientist trying to figure out why why a certain person won by analyzing how close the guy lived to the 7-11.
No, thanks for the ping : )
I am a conservative Atheist. Why do you believe that I should not be able to voice my opinion here? Has the conservative movement become faith based?
Yeah, but I think it might've been rigged in our favor. ;)
A god who requires billions of years is different than a God who creates ex nihilo, complete.
And she said to them “do whatever he says.”
So they took the jars, filled them with water and waited. Toward the end of the wedding one of the waiters said, “Hey. This is starting to taste a bit like flavored water.”
The following week he said, “Hmmmm....grapish Kool-Aid.”
A year later he pronounced: “Ahhh....Mogan David.”
“REQUIRES”? :)
Yep. Requires.
And that’s what my brain keeps going back to. I can’t avoid the thought. I’ve even tried to be a theistic evolutionist, and I just can’t get over that hurdle.
It changes for me who I think God is.
Do you see what I’m saying?
Thanks for posting.
Yes, I see what you’re saying. It’s called “projecting”. You’re saying, “God requires..”, when you really mean to say, “My God requires...”.
I’m not denying that it’s the way I see God.
It’s just I can’t get over the change in the nature of God that theistic evolution entails. He’s less....Godlike. More a tinkerer than a titan.
I, of course, think my view’s biblical, too. And I’m sure a theistic evolutionist would say the same. But, I can’t deny what I see as true. And I don’t mean it as a slight to you.
The "tinkerer" God, is an idea held by certain TEs and rejected by others. Most of the ones I know don't believe in that idea. For instance, here are some comments made by George Murphy (a physicist and a Luthern cleric):
"MN says that science is to proceed "as if God were not given" - acsi deus non daretur. (This phrase of Thomas Torrance is slightly weaker than the more common etsi deus non daretur, "though God were not given.") The point is that science does not appeal to the concept of God to explain phenomena, even if the scientist may believe in God and think that God is involved in what happens in the world.
".. MN does not require that "God plays no part in the physical world." It does not rule out the possibility - which in fact is the traditional Christian view of providence - that God acts by means of natural processes which can be understood in terms of rational laws.
"The statement that "God plays no part in the physical world" does not go as far as metaphysical naturalism. It could be described as deistic methodological naturalism, or more precisely as methodological naturalism which allows deism.
"The simplest definition of MN is that science should not appeal to divine action to explain natural phenomena. Note that this does not imply the belief that science can (in principle) explain all natural phenomena." ~ George Murphy
And here's George Murphy in response to another scientist who doesn't like the term, "theistic evolution" because he doesn't think it's an accurate description:
"...Again I'm not going to spend a great deal of time on terminology. Like it or not, we're probably stuck with "theistic evolution," just the way we're stuck with "big bang." "Evolutionary creationism" is better but it isn't going to catch on.
"Sure, there's good TE & bad TE - just as there's good theology & bad theology, & good evolutionary theories & bad ones. Good versions of TE are ones that try to understand evolution in terms of good theology. & frankly I don't know why you feel yourself competent to say whether or not such versions are "bullet-proof" or not since you've admitted that you aren't qualified to debate theology.
"What I argue for is my own version of whatever you want to call it - it's part of what I call chiasmic cosmology."
"I feel that IDs are pretending that there are no theological issues involved when manifestly there are. Yes, I know that there are "non-theist IDs" & they are insignificant in the public debate, which is what I'm interested in. Please remember that I intend my work in science-theology dialogue to be in service of the church & the larger community in the real world.
".....(By "theology" there I mean something like "the teaching about God and divine things," logos about theos, & not "religious studies.") He is so intent on marking off & defending turf for human & social sciences - a concern with which I don't disagree in a fundamental way - that he fails to understand the role that both good & bad theology play in understanding MN & the ID debate.
The practical meaning of MN is that a scientist - whether "natural" or "human-social" - should not invoke God as an explanation for phenomena in his or her field of study. We are not really concerned about angelic agents or other "supernatural" entities in these discussions. Neither physicist nor a sociologist will be content with "God did it" as an scientific explanation - it's that simple. Of course either of those scientists may indeed believe that God is involved in the phenomena he/she studies. & they may go on to speak about how they think God is involved, but then they aren't doing physics or sociology anymore but theology. & it may be good or bad theology.
"Maybe it's the N in MN that sets Gregory off. I don't think there's a lot to be gained by trying to change established terminology, even when it may be confusing to beginners, but am open to suggestions.
MN in that sense is simply a working rule that virtually all scientists observe & have done so for centuries. I don't leave it at that but argue for that simple version of MN on the fundamental ground of the theology of the cross. (See, e.g., HERE .) Gregory doesn't want to talk about that - at least he never has in my memory when I've made the point before - because he wants to lump all "TEs" together in one inept group. In reality, the ineptitude is displayed by those who fail to take seriously the T of TE.
"Grgeory is partly right when he speaks about biological claims as a "token gesture" of ID - although the vast majority of ID arguments have focussed on biological issues. The real concern of most ID proponents is theological. The issues which ID raises are not in the realm of the human & social sciences as Gregory implies without exactly saying so (at least here). There are, of course, important psychological, sociological &c matters to be studied in connection with the ID movement but they are at a different level.
"The careful reader will have noted that I have not, as a physicist, proclaimed the superiority of the natural sciences over the human & social ones & that I have not tried to tell the latter how to do their jobs beyond the constraint of a clearly & simply defined version of MN. Sociologists are scientists & they don't have to mimic the methods of physicists in order to be described as such." ".. I agree that the exclusion of God as an element of scientific explanation seems more debatable for the human-social sciences than for the natural ones. But consider some of the problems that would be raised if we didn't observe this limitation. Christians, Muslims, Hindus & others will have quite different views about how "God" is involved in one or another social process - e.g., what happened in 7th century Arabia or 16th century Germany. Even among Christians, the views of RCs & Lutherans, e.g., about the latter instance will differ.
This is of course not to deny that God is involved in what individual humans or societies - or for that matter supernovae & nucleic acids - do. But God - if we have any kind of mature understanding of God - is not one entity alongside others that are active in the world. Science has made progress by restricting its attention to those entities that are within the world - or, in theological terms, that are creatures. If & when we want to talk about the creator's involvement in anything that happens we ought to recognize that we are talking about theology - theology informed by physics, psychology &c but not simply another science alongside those disciplines." ~ Shalom, A HREF="http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/">George Murphy
Don't forget that there is a big difference between "intelligent design" and the "ID Movement".
Sorry I failed to make this link hot at the end of my previous post: http://my.raex.com/~gmurphy/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1777111/posts?page=290#290
The words of Jim Robinson on pushing a liberal like Rino Rudy.
“How many times must I say FR is a conservative site? We do not support abortionism, homosexualism, feminisim, environmentalism, gun control, liberalism, socialism, etc, etc, etc. When I say I suspect we will become even more conservative than we already are, possibly via attrition if nothing else, what do you think I’m referring to? When FR starts pushing hard and I mean hard against abortion, gay marriage, homosexual education forced on our school children, pandering to illegal aliens, gun control, McCaine-Feingold type usurpation, global warming, etc, etc, even if supported or advanced by the GOP, then I fully suspect certain types of moderate/liberal Republican supporters are probably going to be a little uncomfortable here. We will be fighting for traditional American conservatism no matter who we have to fight against and I’m afraid that’s going to piss off some folks.”
Jim Robinson, 3/2/07
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1794037/replies?c=1072
Thank you for the post. I have just finished reading it. I’ll have to let it cook for a while.
Is religion inclusive or is it a tribal method of group think that shuns outsiders? I fear it is the latter.
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