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To: fwdude
"You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus."

Gabriel wasn't God's bagman and this wasn't a direct order for her to submit - leave that to people who call God "Allah".

Gabriel was simply prophesying what was to come. Mary's free will was not impeded in any way whatsoever, otherwise, you're characterizing the Holy Spirit as some kind of non-corporeal rapist. Do you really want to imply that?

"Be it done unto me according to thy word" is a voice of permission not submission.

Nowhere in Scripture does Christ identify himself as the Son of Mary; neither does Scripture identify Mary as the Mother of God. Christ, rather, calls himself, "Son of Man" and "Son of God." "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High." Luke 1:32

He doesn't declare Himself the second member of the Godhead, either. In fact, He was vague enough about the nature of His membership in the Trinity that it took several centuries to define both the Trinity and the hypostatic union. Since the hypostatic union defines that Jesus' two natures are INSEPERABLE, then it is impossible to say that Mary is not the Mother of God. If you deny this, you deny Jesus' divinity, end of story.

Additionally, if Mary's motherhood is of no consequence, can you explain why God bothered to be "born" at all? God created Adam out of dust. He could certainly create His own body in the same way or simply appear as an adult and begin His ministry right away. If the Lord wanted us to ignore Mary's motherhood, being born through her is an absolutely useless exercise on the part of God.

90 posted on 01/02/2008 10:00:58 AM PST by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Gabriel wasn't God's bagman and this wasn't a direct order for her to submit - leave that to people who call God "Allah".

Neither was God at the mercy his servant's decision. Your misrepresentation of God and the facts as Scripturally stated speaks volumns - despite your weak attempt to equate a Biblical view of God with that of Islam. God's work is not at the mercy of those who He wishes to work his will. He is sovereign, and will have his way, willingness or not.

Do you not even remember that Moses was completely unwilling to fulfill the command of God to be the instrument of deliverance to Israel? "Send someone else, not me!" And yet God was firm, but gentle, and assured Moses that his power was with him. Peter was told by the Lord that he would be lead where he did not want to go (to crucifixion.) And yet God did mighty works through these men despite their reluctance because it was solely through His power that these works were done.

99 posted on 01/02/2008 9:00:17 PM PST by fwdude
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To: Rutles4Ever
He doesn't declare Himself the second member of the Godhead, either. In fact, He was vague enough about the nature of His membership in the Trinity that it took several centuries to define both the Trinity and the hypostatic union.

Really??? It took you guys hundreds of years to find the Trinity, or admit of the exhistance???

Don't you think that's a little odd since John was aware of and wrote about the Trinity in the 1st Century???

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

How many time did Jesus say 'the Father and I are One"???

Since the hypostatic union defines that Jesus' two natures are INSEPERABLE, then it is impossible to say that Mary is not the Mother of God.

Really??? Where is this hypostatic union defined??? Where is it said that the two natures are inseparable???

Christians have one body, two natures...The old nature (contained in the flesh) and the new nature (contained in the soul)...When the flesh dies, we'll have one nature...

Additionally, if Mary's motherhood is of no consequence, can you explain why God bothered to be "born" at all?

Sure...Jesus had to become human, JUST AS WE ARE...He had to be born, just as we have...He had to experience human life and human temptation, just as we do...He had to be an example...

If the Lord wanted us to ignore Mary's motherhood, being born through her is an absolutely useless exercise on the part of God.

Sounds nice, but you won't find that in any scripture...

102 posted on 01/03/2008 6:18:30 AM PST by Iscool
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