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To: spunkets

Here’s what +John Chrysostomos makes of the verse. His take is a bit different from yours. Quite clearly servants fight in a fallen world, like this one but there is no need for that in the kingdom of God. This of course is consistent with The Church’s teaching of theosis, the process of becoming like God. Unless one adheres to the “other” Western notion of a vengeful God whose wrath was slaked only by the shedding of innocent blood, fighting/war are antithetical to becoming like God.

” “My Kingdom is not of this world.”

He leadeth upwards Pilate who was not a very wicked man, nor after their fashion, and desireth to show that He is not a mere man, but God and the Son of God. And what saith He?

“If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews but now in My kingdom not from hence,” N.T.

He undoeth that which Pilate for a while had feared, namely, the suspicion of seizing kingly power, “Is then His kingdom not of this world also? Certainly it is. How then saith He it ‘is not’? Not because He doth not rule here, but because He hath his empire from above, and because it is not human, but far greater than this and more splendid. “If then it be greater, how was He made captive by the other?” By consenting, and giving Himself up. But He doth not at present reveal this, but what saith He? “If I had been of this world, ‘My servants would fight, that I should not be delivered.’” Here He showeth the weakness of kingship among us, that its strength lies in servants; but that which is above is sufficient for itself, needing nothing. From this the heretics taking occasion say, that He is different from the Creator. What then, when it saith, “He came to His own”? What, when Himself saith, “They are not of this world, as I am not of this world”? So also He saith that His kingdom is not from hence, not depriving the world of His providence and superintendence, but showing, as I said, that His power was not human or perishable. What then said Pilate?.... “My Kingdom is not of this world.”

He leadeth upwards Pilate who was not a very wicked man, nor after their fashion, and desireth to show that He is not a mere man, but God and the Son of God. And what saith He?

“If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews.”24282428 “to the Jews; but now in My kingdom not from hence,” N.T.

He undoeth that which Pilate for a while had feared, namely, the suspicion of seizing kingly power, “Is then His kingdom not of this world also?”24292429 Ben. omits “also.” Certainly it is. “How then saith He it ‘is not’?” Not because He doth not rule here, but because He hath his empire from above, and because it is not human, but far greater than this and more splendid. “If then it be greater, how was He made captive by the other?” By consenting, and giving Himself up. But He doth not at present reveal24302430 al. “hide.” this, but what saith He? “If I had been of this world, ‘My servants would fight, that I should not be delivered.’” Here He showeth the weakness of kingship among us, that its strength lies in servants; but that which is above is sufficient for itself, needing nothing. From this the heretics taking occasion say, that He is different from the Creator. What then, when it saith, “He came to His own”? ( c. i. 11 .) What, when Himself saith, “They are not of this world, as I am not of this world”? ( c. xvii. 14.) So also He saith that His kingdom is not from hence, not depriving the world of His providence and superintendence, but showing, as I said, that His power was not human or perishable. What then said Pilate?...”


79 posted on 12/29/2007 5:50:04 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
"Quite clearly servants fight in a fallen world, like this one but there is no need for that in the kingdom of God."

Revelation 12:7-9
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray."

War is a clash of wills. It happens in Heaven just as it does here. There is no sin in war itself. The sin lies in what is being imposed. If one fights to establish freedom, which is the imposition of nothing, the abolishment of imposition, and the establishment of individual rights protection, then there is no sin.

"“Is then His kingdom not of this world also? Certainly it is."

God said in that passage, that His Kingdom is not of this World. So this conclusion and claim is false.

"“If I had been of this world, ‘My servants would fight, that I should not be delivered.’” Here He showeth the weakness of kingship among us, that its strength lies in servants; but that which is above is sufficient for itself, needing nothing."

It is not simple weakness. He is not the King of this world and does not impose His will. Note that Peter and those with him could have prevented His capture, but God told them not to fight. God did not say it was a sin, but said to do so would be contrary to His will, which fundamentally was to honor the freedom given as a gift from the beginning. He came to teach, not to impose His will.

He instructed men to honor freedom, just as He does. Matthew 10:14
If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

Though he did not say that one should not fight to defend one's self, or others. Luke 22:35-38
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'[Isaiah 53:12]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.

The instruction to honor freedom in Matt 10:14 and to teach His moral code, can not be done if one submits to any will that is in opposition to freedom, or that violates rights. If anyone seeks theosis, they must recognize that evil is to be opposed and that evil is defined by rights violations, which are manefest by examining the moral code. Evil is not inherent in simple, or violent opposition of will. Else God Himself would be evil for opposing the will of satan, and bringing a sword, instead of peace. Matthew 10:34-
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[Micah 7:6]

Just as war is not inherently evil, neither is peace inherently good. Those that do not enjoy the gift of freedom, which must be extended as a gift from everyone, know that quite well.

89 posted on 12/29/2007 9:56:21 AM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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