Posted on 12/18/2007 1:52:09 PM PST by NYer
“As to the Pope, perhaps you should consider that he owns nothing of the Vatican “
please don’t confuse the Vatican with the Temple or the Pope with God. The Pope is an elected official, a man.
If you control something and have use of it in your lifetime, you own it. Otherwise, no one owns anything.
Well, I don’t have the time to critically reply to each of your points, but there are some that I can respond to right off the top. First, the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church have the same OT canon. Those two Churches broke communion in 1054, which is 500 years before the Council of Trent, which is consistent with the Septuagint being recognized by both West and East. The Oriental Orthodox Churchs, some which rejected the Council of Chalcedon in 451, and those broke communion with Rome and the major Eastern Patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch and Constantinopile recognize the Deueterocanonicals. This would be 1100 years before Trent.
You are correct that the Councils of Hippo and Carthage in 393 and 397 were regional Councils of the Latin/Western Church in North Africa. However, the canons, especially the ones relating to the Biblical Canon, were sent to Rome when Boniface was the Bishop of Rome (Pope) for confirmation. They were confirmed as being the acceptable Canon. Thus, since these Councils were confirmed by the Pope Boniface, they become recognized and accepted for all Catholics in Communion with the Church of Rome.
Other facts that support the Catholic Canon include Pope Innocents letter to the Bishops in France in 405. The Council of Carthage in 419 confirmed the same Canon of the the earlier Councils.
I think the weight of evidence supports the Catholic and Orthodox position, not the Protestant position of the 16th century. As for the Council of Rome in 382, I am aware that there is some issues with what was in Fr. Arevalo’s translations as to what was put in his work. I know of no reputable scholar that denies there was a Council of Rome, nor was a list drawn up. The evidence clearly indicates that St. Jerome began working on his Latin Vulgate translation using the Septuigiant sources in 384 and 385, which he would finally complete around 410 AD.
Pax Domine Christi
Excuse me but if I'm not mistaken the Church and Mormons uses extra writings to develop their doctrine. Protestants are the ones who tout sola scriptura if you'll recall.
Hey Kolo, a blessed Feast of the Nativity to you as well. Although if I attend one more feast I’m afraid I’ll have to buy some new slacks with elastic around the waist.
“...I’m afraid I’ll have to buy some new slacks with elastic around the waist.”
A nice pair of “SLACKS”, I trust! :) Slacks!????
LOL!!! At least I didn’t say I wanted to buy a lime-green leisure suit. :O)
I’m very sorry, but in the year 107 Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch wrote this to the church in Smyrna on the way to his martyrdom in Rome.
“Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church”.
““Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church”.”
And by “Catholic” Church you don’t mean the exclusive Roman franchise I trust...or do you? Some Latins actually believe that, you know. I’ll bet the clown who wrote this article does.
I didn't say that the Pope was anything other than a man. You are jumping to conclusions and not answering my question. Why did God COMMAND the Jews to build a VERY EXPENSIVE Temple? At what point did Jesus tell Christians they need to ransack the Temple and sell the goods for the sake of the poor?
If you have ever been to such a church or cathedral, perhaps you may have experience a particular sense of awe, of wonder at the sacred architecture that man dedicates for the sake of God. Considering that men built these churches, are you upset that they decided to build them, rather than give money to the poor? Doesn't the owner of the money or the art have the right to use it as they see fit?
If you control something and have use of it in your lifetime, you own it. Otherwise, no one owns anything.
The Pope didn't inherit anything, nor does he leave it to his family as in a will. George Bush will not be receiving the deed to the White House, nor does the Pope own the Vatican museum or anything in it. Those in office utilize the instruments at their disposal, but they don't own them. Those who own things are able to use them regardless of their office, job, title, marriage status, or any other legal distinction you can come up with. I can will my family to receive the things that I own. If I was the Pope, I could not leave my mother my great big Pope hat...
It's not mine.
Regards
The term 'Roman Catholic' was something that came from the Anglican congregations in their wishful attempt to develop a "branch" theology of the Church. The term was never used in legal Catholic documents before that, as far as I can tell... However, it is good you pointed it out, albeit in your brusque manner.
Be patient with the ignorant, brother. In all things, love first.
In Christ
“Be patient with the ignorant, brother. In all things, love first.”
Brusque, eh?! At the rate we are hurtling towards at least a reunion in name if not in fact, we’ve no time for patience with the ignorant. I wonder what your mitred heads will do when some of us Orthodox get in their faces where the “particular churches” overlap? :)
Hey Kolokotronis:
Most Catholics here recognize that the Orthodox Church possesses all valid 7 Sacraments (Divine Mysteries in Eastern Theological terminology), maintain valid Apostolic Succession and Holy Orders, etc. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Eucharist (CCC paragraph 838).
As on earlier Catholic Poster stated, be patient with some of the less informed Catholics out there. I am sure Mr. Addison is well intentioned, but unfortunately is probably not well versed in the Eastern Tradition of the Church. It is clear that both Pope John Paul II, of Blessed memory, and Pope Benedict VI have a profound respect and love of the Eastern Tradition, which I as a Catholic recognize as valid and authentic and a fully orthodox tradition that is complementary to the Western Tradition.
I think we agree that St. Ignatius of Antioch is referring to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of his time, which both Catholics and Orthodox are part of. What I believe happens here is that Catholics are use to viewing this debates from the Catholic and Protestant(s) angle and forget that the Eastern Orthodox are 99.999999% in agreement with us Catholics, which also indicates that the various Protestant traditions are in less conformity to the Apostolic tradition (some Protestants are in more comformity than others).
I think the only real question is how the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome is to exercised and understood in a reunited Catholic and Orthodox Church, which is something that I hope and pray happens before I die.
Merry Christmas to you
And a Blessed Feast of the Nativity to you. Or as we say in the mother tongue:
Καλα Χριστουγεννα!
“If you have ever been to such a church or cathedral, perhaps you may have experience a particular sense of awe”
You seem honest and sincere. My points are:
1. The Temple was built as God’s house. To equate those things given for God to those given to the Pope is wrong. The spiritual rules are different.
2. Ownership: If you have control and use of something FOR LIFE, it is the same as owning it. The President may use the Whitehouse while president for up to 8 years. there are limits on what he can do even during that time.
3. Whenever anyone uses money FOR LUXURIES, (which by definition means it is unecessary) when someone else has less than they NEED, it is wrong. The Pope could wear a Yankee’s cap and feed a family in Ruwanda. It would be a great statement of humility and love.
“And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” (Mark 10:21 RSV)
This wasn’t meant for the builders of God’s house, or of people who anoint the Lord Jesus Christ, but common sinners like you, me and the Pope.
By the way, my family moved to London my junior year in high school. I have seen enough cathedrals to last a lifetime. Our family church is St. Bernard’s in Mt. Lebanon, PA
http://www.stbernardchurch.com/Parish_History/parish_history.html
It’s prettier than most European Cathedrals, and almost as big.
We attended mass at St Augustine’s in Florida before Thanksgiving and we have been to mass at St. Luis Cathedral in New Orleans. Two of the oldest in America.
My wife taught CCD for years and both of my Children are Catholic. I love the history and grandeur of the Catholic Church, but as a small town Southern Baptist who attended Sunday School and Sunday morning services as well as Sunday evening Training Union and evening services, Wednesday night Prayer meetings, Vacation Bible School, was a Royal Ambassador (baptist boy scout) and went to church camp every summer.
I say this because I have read many versions of the Bible, including the authorized Catholic version, I own several Bible comentaries.
For this reason, I do not accept that the Bible can be taken literally, even the red letter parts. I believe that men have crafted different interpretations and even added their own verses.
As the son of God, the least we can say is that He would be consistant, so contradictions are man made. There are a few passages that seem to say wealth is good, but the bulk is on the side of sacrificing ourselves for others. That’s what Jesus did after all. I choose to believe that Jesus wants us to be like him and live a life of sacrifice. I have personally fallen far short, but I believe it no less because of it.
You and your family enjoy your Christmas.
Please do not use potty language - or references to potty language - on the Religion Forum.
“Please do not use potty language - or references to potty language”
Please tell me what you are referring to.
In Christ
Every confession, pro or con, has members complaining that I am picking on them. If the day ever comes that no one in a confession has a complaint about me, then I might be concerned that I am biased.
I had to go back to each of my posts to see what I said that was potty language.
I am guilty. I didn’t use the word in the potty sense, but just to say that America was created in part by pilgrims escaping religious persecution. Used in this way, even the FCC believes it is acceptable. But it is apparently against the rules on FR.
For that reason, I was wrong to use the word.
Sorry, Moderator and those offended
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