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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg

***Jesus the man had an earthly mother, she is not, was not, can not be the mother of God.***

If you believe that, then you are contradicting the clear words of Holy Scripture. St. John says in Chapter 1, verse 14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” This clearly shows that Jesus, present from all eternity (the Word), was born in the flesh. In order to be born, one has to have a mother. Indeed, Holy Scripture says that the Holy Spirit was His father, because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary so that “the holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35b Holy Scripture clearly says that the person born of Mary was God, therefore she was the mother of God.

If you are saying that Mary cannot be the mother of God, then you are saying that Jesus was not God, at least not when He was a baby. This is the heresy of Nestorianism: that Jesus was two distinct persons, the human and the divine. If this is the case, then which person died on the Cross - the human or the divine? If it was the human person, then it was not sufficient to atone for our sins. The doctrine of “Theotokos,” declared by The Church at the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., combatted this heresy. The doctrine declares Mary to be “Theotokos,” the “God-bearer” or “Mother of God,” in order to clarify that Jesus was the Second Person of the Trinity and not just a human man or two separate persons. The doctrine had its origins in defining the nature of Jesus as being both human and divine and not separate. Your posts definitely **sound** like Nestorianism.

In addition, if you believe that Mary or any other of the saints cannot intercede for us, then you are, once again, contradicting the clear words of Holy Scripture which say that the saints are now before the throne of God:

Revelation 7:14b, 15 “And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.”

and that they offer their prayers:

Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.”

and these prayers of the saints are offered upon the altar before the throne of God:

Revelation 8:3-4 “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.”


99 posted on 01/07/2008 8:27:03 AM PST by nanetteclaret ("I will sing praise to my God while I have my being." Psalm 104:33b)
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To: nanetteclaret

You fail to comprehend the distinction of Mary having been the mother of Jesus in the flesh but not the mother of Jesus - the second of the triune God-head. As God, Jesus has always existed and was not birthed by any human. As man, he came to Earth via birthing by the young woman, Mary. Scripture shows His relationship to her not being the normal one of son to mother, from the early record of Jesus being left behind, inadvertently, because He had to “tend to His Father’s business” in the temple. (Luke 2:41 - 52)

I did not say heavenly saints could not intercede for us, but that we are not to pray to them. We are to pray only to and in the name of Jesus - our high priest. The prayers of the saints mentioned in Rev 5 and 8 do not prove your point, as the word “saints” refers to any and all Christians - not those who have died in Christ. The context of these two chapters indicates that the prayers being handled by these heavenly elders and angels are those of the persecuted saints of God living on Earth during the Great Tribulation. Check out Rev 6:9 - 11.

I believe the Scriptures - I do not believe anything man says unless it line up with the Scriptures. To call Mary “the Mother of God” is to glorify a mere woman with merit that is not hers. Indeed, the Bible does not record that she sought to be looked upon as such. This is a tale of men for the worship of men. It’s heresy.


101 posted on 01/07/2008 11:44:07 AM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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