Papal Indulgences, Two Ways: Easy and Hard

The New York Times ^ | December 5, 2007 | Mike Nizza

[Alex Murphy]

According to the centuries-old rules of the Roman Catholic Church, sin-reduction is a two-step process. Guilt is absolved through confession and prayer, but punishment — on earth or in purgatory — can be avoided through indulgences, an ancient form of church-granted amnesty that critics deride as a shortcut to salvation.

The door for indulgences is not always open, though, and for years after the Vatican Council reforms of the 1960s, they were rarely offered — until 2000, when Pope John Paul II started using them to attract pilgrims to World Youth Day.

Today, Pope Benedict XVI put out the latest offer of indulgences, with two highly-detailed options. The harder way to get one, at least if you don’t live in southwestern France, involves making a pilgrimage to Lourdes, where the faithful believe that the Virgin Mary appeared to a teenage girl 18 times over a five-month span in 1858. The pilgrimage, which must be made in the next year, can be accomplished using Vatican charter flights that began over the summer.

The easier way involves a tighter window of time — just nine days in February — but what will probably be a much shorter trip, to “any church, grotto or decorous place” that displays “the blessed image” of the apparition. (Would a front yard in Staten Island qualify?) In the presence of the image, one must “participate in a pious exercise” to show devotion to the Virgin Mary, the announcement says.

“Or at least pause for an appropriate space of time in prayer and with pious meditations,” it continues.

(The instructions do not specify whether you can bring your own blessed image, or B.Y.O.B.I. A handy “divine sound-activated desk fountain” featuring the holy scene is available

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[jo kus]

My point is that the Church claims authority over Purgatory- the authority to remit/mitigate/eliminate time/punishment/suffering therin. If the Church has such authority, why can it not empty Purgatory completely (as Luther once asked)?

Why should the Church empty Purgatory? God has this third state of existence after death for a reason - and the Church will not remove it. Why remove the effects of penance for a person? There is a purpose for being sorry for one's sins. Much can be learned from humbling oneself and burning away the chaff from one's spiritual life. Any remission of punishment is because a person had performed some penitential act. If that doesn't occur, then the conversion to Christ is not complete.

Regards

[Ann Archy]

THIS IS ENOUGH!!! Alex Murphy posts NOTHING but ANTI-CATHOLIC items......I am sick of it....hopefully you and Jim Robinson would be also.......

[Campion]

My point is that the Church claims authority over Purgatory

Her "authority" over purgatory is that of a supplicant, not that of a ruler. The Pope is not a ruler over the Church Suffering in purgatory, only over the Church Militant on earth.

the Pope has no excuse for not emptying Purgatory once and for all.

The only way he could do that is if he had the kind of authority over that he doesn't in fact have.

[Campion]

Your SHOUTING things in blue does not make them more PERSUASIVE. You might try logic and evidence instead.

[Campion]

all the doctrines of men the Magicsterical may be foisting off on the serfs

Quix, when you write stuff like this, particularly using insulting terms like "Magicsterical" and "serfs," Catholics simply tune you out. If you can't make your case without using childish, made-up words to caricature other people's beliefs, your case doesn't amount to much.

[Quix]

You are welcome to construe reality that way.

[Quix]

It is fascinating the blindness folks have toooooo doing the very thing they castigate others for doing.

differently, of course . . . and always for more righteous “reasons.”

I, however, am fond of my childlike faith—when it manages to rise to that level.

[Quix]

BTW, RC’s should tune me out whenever God says to do so.

I have no idea what of my words HE may feel inclined to hold them accountable to.

. . . if any.

[Campion]

It is fascinating the blindness folks have toooooo doing the very thing they castigate others for doing.

Please feel free to post links to all of the posts I've made on FR where I've used childish, made-up words to caricature Protestant belief.

[Campion]

RC's should tune me out whenever God says to do so.

Titus 3:2

[Quix]

NAW ....... will leavvvvvve to Holy Spirit.

you seem to have missed, though . . .

differently, of course . . . and always for more righteous “reasons.”

[Running On Empty]

Thanks, Campion.

[jo kus]

Quix, when you write stuff like this, particularly using insulting terms like "Magicsterical" and "serfs," Catholics simply tune you out. If you can't make your case without using childish, made-up words to caricature other people's beliefs, your case doesn't amount to much.

Agree. I haven't responded to Quix for that reason. It reads like the typical anti-catholic skree, with all of the cliches and buzz words in their appropriate places. In blue letters, no less.

Furthermore, I do not recall anywhere saying or even implying that Protestants had half a brain. But that seems to be the message that Quix received from my suggestion that Protestants need to view the Mystical Body of Christ from a different point of view to understand Catholics.

Regards

[armydoc]

Why should the Church empty Purgatory? God has this third state of existence after death for a reason - and the Church will not remove it. Why remove the effects of penance for a person? There is a purpose for being sorry for one's sins. Much can be learned from humbling oneself and burning away the chaff from one's spiritual life. Any remission of punishment is because a person had performed some penitential act. If that doesn't occur, then the conversion to Christ is not complete.

And thus the "fatal contradiction" of indulgences is exposed. If suffering in Purgatory is a good thing, then the last thing a Catholic should want a reduction in that suffering for one's self or a departed loved one. If, on the other hand, an indulgence is as efficacious as Purgatorial suffering for "spiritual cleansing", then there is no reason that all suffering be eliminated by the application of one indulgence, defined by the Pope.

[armydoc]

Her "authority" over purgatory is that of a supplicant, not that of a ruler. The Pope is not a ruler over the Church Suffering in purgatory, only over the Church Militant on earth.

Does the Pope have authority to define indulgences which have the effect of reducing suffering in Purgatory?

[MarkBsnr]

:::If jo kus was not speaking of Purgatory, could one of you explain how the Church can “free one from the effects of temporal punishments”?:::

When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

“Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’” (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)

While Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.

[jo kus]

If suffering in Purgatory is a good thing, then the last thing a Catholic should want a reduction in that suffering for one's self or a departed loved one.

We will either suffer here on earth or in Purgatory for our sins. The suffering will be more intense there, since we didn't take advantage of the time given to us here to fully transform. It doesn't follow that we should DESIRE to suffer in Purgatory more than here on earth! I am not quite sure that I follow that "logic".

If, on the other hand, an indulgence is as efficacious as Purgatorial suffering for "spiritual cleansing", then there is no reason that all suffering be eliminated by the application of one indulgence, defined by the Pope.

People here on earth are given many opportunities to suffer or repent for their sins. God has given the Church the power to loosen the temporal punishment due those sins. If people take advantage of what the Church offers, so much the better for them.

Regards

[armydoc]

We will either suffer here on earth or in Purgatory for our sins.

Suffering on earth as a consequence of our sins is not in question. The issue of Purgatorial suffering is the issue. The Church claims authority to eliminate Purgatorial suffering via indulgences. Do you deny that?

God has given the Church the power to loosen the temporal punishment due those sins. If people take advantage of what the Church offers, so much the better for them.

My point is not that people are taking advantage of what the Church offers; rather why does the Church not offer complete remission of Pugatorial suffering? The Pope could define a perpetual plenary indulgence. He could say, for example, that a plenary indulgence (complete remission of Purgatorial suffering) will be gained by anyone who prays the Lord's Prayer or Hail Mary once. He could also apply this indulgence to everyone already in Purgatory. He could instruct Priests to lead this prayer at every Mass. This way, no Purgatorial suffering would be necessary- the "superabundant merits of Christ and the Saints" would be applied to the soul instantly upon death.

[jo kus]

My point is not that people are taking advantage of what the Church offers; rather why does the Church not offer complete remission of Pugatorial suffering?

You are missing the entire point of penance... The Church is not going to eliminate it without some sort of penitential action on the part of the person. Penance and purgation will occur either here or in the next life.

Regards