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CATHOLICISM TARRED BY CHRISTIAN FILM
Catholic League ^ | December 3, 2007 | Bill Donohue

Posted on 12/04/2007 7:50:27 AM PST by NYer

click here to read article


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To: Hacksaw

haha, quote of the day (filed in the sad but true category)


21 posted on 12/04/2007 11:18:05 AM PST by ECM (Government is a make-work program for lawyers.)
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To: GoLightly
Do you think the film makers had revenge against the Catholic Church in mind when they made this film?

Based on the plot synopsis contained herein? Yes.

22 posted on 12/04/2007 11:19:49 AM PST by ECM (Government is a make-work program for lawyers.)
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To: ECM

Revenge? Really? Interesting. Would that be revenge against all Catholics (the body) or would we be talking about just the clergy, from the Pope on down?


23 posted on 12/04/2007 11:45:25 AM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

So when, say, 9-11 occurred did you view that as merely an attack on the financial centers of the US or did you view it as an attack against all Americans?


24 posted on 12/04/2007 1:07:06 PM PST by ECM (Government is a make-work program for lawyers.)
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To: GoLightly
Would that be revenge against all Catholics (the body) or would we be talking about just the clergy, from the Pope on down?

False dichotomy.

We're all, clergy and laity, the Church: the "Mystical Body of Christ". Attacking one of us is attacking all of us. St. Paul filled in the details, if you're interested.

25 posted on 12/04/2007 1:16:50 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ECM

That your way of saying, “the body, which would include the clergy” or “all of the above”?


26 posted on 12/04/2007 1:25:49 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: ArrogantBustard
We're all, clergy and laity, the Church: the "Mystical Body of Christ". Attacking one of us is attacking all of us. St. Paul filled in the details, if you're interested.

Guess I should have worded my question better. So, you agree? The intent of the film makers was to try to get revenge?

27 posted on 12/04/2007 1:28:34 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly
See number 20.

If it's being reported accurately, I'd describe it as gratuitous trashing rather than revenge.

28 posted on 12/04/2007 1:30:00 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
IMO, could be ignorance or "revenge" against a perception that has little basis in reality after they had contact with a number of CINOs that look down their noses at those who believe as they do. Without knowing the life experience of the film makers, it's difficult to know their intent when they depicted characters the way that they did.
29 posted on 12/04/2007 1:42:29 PM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

AL QAEDA does not have any prefence...BEHEADS faithfuls of every XTIAN DENOMINATION!
Think about it!


30 posted on 12/05/2007 7:13:24 AM PST by Traianus (YES I GOT HIM! BASHAR IS 666....)
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To: Traianus
AL QAEDA does not have any prefence...BEHEADS faithfuls of every XTIAN DENOMINATION! Think about it!

You're right, but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by bringing them into this discussion. You're the second to do so, but I took the previous mention to be a hyperbolic analogy. You have my attention. What's your point?

31 posted on 12/05/2007 8:50:00 AM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

UNITED WE STAND.
DIVIDED WE’LL FALL.


32 posted on 12/06/2007 1:37:43 AM PST by Traianus (YES I GOT HIM! BASHAR IS 666....)
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To: NYer

**“Throughout the film, confession is trivialized, celibacy is ridiculed, the Virgin Mary is disrespected, nuns are belittled, last rites are mocked, and priestly vocations are caricatured.**

Disgusting. I am sick of Christians making fun of Catholics. Let’s see Protestants were started from a man Luthur...who went and divorced his wife just because it was too hard to stay married. Yes he is some role model. Christians can make up rules as they go along. No wonder there are so many. Easy religion = Easy Life. See not so much fun is it????


33 posted on 12/06/2007 1:58:40 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: Traianus
UNITED WE STAND. DIVIDED WE’LL FALL.

True. Easy to demand the other guy change & all will be well. More difficult not to make that demand & find a way to unite with him anyway.

34 posted on 12/06/2007 5:52:18 AM PST by GoLightly
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To: napscoordinator
Let’s see Protestants were started from a man Luthur...who went and divorced his wife just because it was too hard to stay married. Yes he is some role model. Christians can make up rules as they go along. No wonder there are so many. Easy religion = Easy Life. See not so much fun is it????

If your intent is to be hurtful, I'm afraid you'll have to do better, because that didn't leave even a tiny little mark.

35 posted on 12/06/2007 5:57:57 AM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly
QURAN  Surat 19  "MARY"
19:88 They say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"  
19:89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!  
19:90 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,  
19:91 That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious.  
19:92 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.  
 
1John 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard 
that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 4:20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he 
has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM, U CAN BET ON IT!!!
And THIS COULD WELL BE a POINT of UNDENIABLE CONVERGENCE.....
Isn't it?
 
 

36 posted on 12/06/2007 6:26:51 AM PST by Traianus (YES I GOT HIM! BASHAR IS 666....)
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To: Traianus
I was talking about those you hope to bring together in unity, not those you hope we will unite against.
37 posted on 12/06/2007 6:38:10 AM PST by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly

The answer is a little complicated but not impossible:
for Lutherans: see in what actual Catholic Church (RCC is outdated as denomination: remember Melkites are Catholic as well as Maronites and Chaldean Catholich Church)
comply with the WITTEMBERG THESIS....
For Anglicans/Episcopals a sort of UNIATE CHURCH solution, modeled after Oriental Churches?
The situation with Southern Baptist Convention could be analogically handled....
The Pope could renounce to ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY to become a “PRIMUS INTER PARES”....(In effect THIS was the TRUE situation of Peter after the PENTECOST)


38 posted on 12/06/2007 7:00:00 AM PST by Traianus (YES I GOT HIM! BASHAR IS 666....)
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To: GoLightly

Cardinal Kasper's Ecumenism: Truth Above All

The complete text of the address delivered at the consistory by the president of the pontifical council for Christian unity. Good progress with the Orthodox, bad with the mainline Protestants, so-so with the "evangelicals" and Pentecostals. And meanwhile, with the Muslims...

by Sandro Magister



ROMA, December 4, 2007 – Eight days before it was published on the last day of November, Benedict XVI had announced the release of the encyclical on hope, "Spe Salvi," to the cardinals gathered in Rome from all over the world, at the meeting that opened the consistory.

For many of them, the announcement came as a surprise.

But the topic at the center of the discussion was not that of the encyclical, but the current state of ecumenical relations between the Catholic Church and the other Christian confessions.

The cardinals' meeting with the pope took up the entire day of Friday, November 23. Benedict XVI entrusted the task of introducing the discussion to cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the pontifical council for Christian unity.

17 other cardinals spoke after Kasper's address. The meeting was held behind closed doors, but the Holy See press office, in a concise summary, related that some of the speakers indicated the implementation of the Church's social doctrine and the defense of life and the family as some of the more promising areas for ecumenism. Others proposed continuing with the "purification of memory." Still others asked for greater attention in using "forms of communication more attentive to not wounding the sensibility of other Christians."

This last request was also presented in Kasper's address. Referring to the "Five responses" published last July by the congregation for the doctrine of the faith, the cardinal had noted that these "have raised perplexity and have occasioned a certain discontent" in some Christian confessions, especially among the Protestants. And he added:

"It is to be hoped that the form, language, and public presentation of such declarations could be reviewed."

After the midday break, another 16 cardinals spoke that afternoon.

Some expanded the attention to relations with the Jews and with Islam. There was talk about the "encouraging sign" represented by the letter of the 138 Muslim personalities, and by the visit of the king of Saudi Arabia to the Holy Father.

And in this regard, a few days later a letter was made public from the cardinal secretary of state, Tarcisio Bertone, to Jordan's Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, with the announcement of a future audience between the pope and the prince, together with some of the signatories of the letter of the 138, and of an agenda of dialogue "on effective respect for the dignity of every human person, on objective knowledge of the religion of the other, on the sharing of religious experience and, finally, on common commitment to promoting mutual respect and acceptance among the younger generation".

A brief response from Cardinal Kasper on a few particular points and a speech by the pope concluded the day.

The Holy See press office has not put Kasper's address online, nor can it be found on the Vatican website. But it was printed in "L'Osservatore Romano" the following day.

In any case, it makes for very interesting reading. Because it clearly describes – on the part of someone with authority on the subject – the current state of ecumenical relations, in this order:

– with the pre-Chalcedonian Eastern Churches;
– with the Orthodox Churches of the Byzantine, Syrian, and Slavic traditions;
– with the ecclesial Communities born of the Protestant Reformation;
– with the "evangelical" Communities;
– with the Charismatic and Pentecostal Communities.

Kasper accompanies this diagnosis with indications on how to continue this journey fruitfully.

Here, then, is the complete text of his relation, delivered in Italian to the cardinals on November 23 and translated into the other languages by www.chiesa:


Information and reflections on the current ecumenical situation

by Walter Kasper


In the time available, it will unfortunately be possible to present information and reflections on the current ecumenical situation only in broad outlines, and not in a comprehensive way. Nevertheless, I hope that my presentation can bring to light the action of divine providence, which leads toward the unity of separated Christians, to make their witness an increasingly clear sign for the world.

I.

I will begin with an initial observation that I believe to be essential. What we call ecumenism - which should be distinguished from interreligious dialogue - has its foundation in the testament left to us by Jesus himself, on the eve of his death: "Ut unum sint" (John 17:21). Vatican Council II defined the promotion of Christian unity as one of its principal goals (Unitatis Redintegratio 1) and as an impulse of the Holy Spirit (UR 1,4). Pope John Paul II declared that the ecumenical venture is an irreversible journey (Ut Unum Sint 3), and Pope Benedict XVI, from the first day of his pontificate, took on as one of his primary commitments the unsparing effort for the restoration of the full and visible unity of all of Christ's followers. He understands that the display of good intentions does not suffice for this. There is a need for concrete actions capable of reaching within the mind and motivating the conscience, urging each person to that interior conversion that is the precondition for all progress along the path of ecumenism (homily given April 20, 2005, before the college of cardinals). Ecumenism, therefore, is not an optional choice, but a sacred obligation.

Naturally, ecumenism is not synonymous with an easygoing humanism, nor with ecclesiological relativism. It is based upon the firm awareness that the Catholic Church has of itself and of its catholic principles, of which the decree on ecumenism speaks (UR 2-4). It is an ecumenism of truth and charity; these two are intimately connected, and cannot be substituted for each other. Above all, the dialogue of truth must be respected. The concrete norms for this are presented in a binding manner in the "Ecumenical Directory" of 1993.

The most significant - and most gratifying - result of ecumenism over the past few decades is not the various documents, but the recovery of fraternity, the fact that we have rediscovered that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, that we have learned to appreciate one another and have begun together the journey toward full unity (cf. UUS 42). Along this journey, the see of Peter has become over the past forty years an increasingly important point of reference for all the Churches and all the ecclesial Communities. If the initial enthusiasm has been replaced by an attitude of greater sobriety, this demonstrates that ecumenism has become more mature, more adult. Ecumenism has by now become a daily reality, perceived as something normal in the Church's life. It is with great gratitude that we must acknowledge in this development the action of the Spirit who guides the Church.

More specifically, we can distinguish three fields within ecumenism. First of all must be mentioned the relations with the ancient Eastern Churches and with the Orthodox Churches of the first millennium, which we recognize as authentic Churches on the ecclesiological level, having maintained, as we have, the faith and apostolic succession. In the second place, we recall the relations with the ecclesial Communities that emerged directly or indirectly - like the free Churches - from the Reformation of the 16th century; these have developed an ecclesiology of their own, on the basis of Sacred Scripture. Finally, the recent history of Christianity has seen a so-called "third wave," that of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements, which emerged at the beginning of the twentieth century and have since spread all over the world with exponential growth. Ecumenism must therefore face a varied and differentiated reality, characterized by very distinctive features depending on the cultural contexts and the local churches.

II.

Let's begin with the Churches of the first millennium. Already in the first ten years of dialogue with the pre-Chalcedonian Eastern Churches, or the period between 1980 and 1990, we achieved important results. Thanks to the agreement reached by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II with the respective patriarchs [of Constantinople], it was possible to move beyond the ancient Christological controversies that rose up around the Council of Chalcedon (451) and, in regard to the Assyrian Church of the East, around the Council of Ephesus (381).

In its second phase, dialogue was focused on ecclesiology, or on the concept of ecclesial communion and its criteria. The next meeting is planned for Damascus, from January 27 to February 2, 2008. It is there that discussions will be held for the first time on the draft of a document on "The nature, constitution, and mission of the Church." Thanks to this dialogue, Churches of ancient tradition, and even of apostolic tradition, are again establishing contact with the universal Church, after living on its fringes for 1500 years. That this should happen slowly, step by step, is completely normal given the circumstances, or the long centuries of separation and the great differences of culture and mentality.

Dialogue with the Orthodox Churches of the Byzantine, Syrian, and Slavic traditions was begun officially in 1980. We share with these Churches the dogmas of the first millennium; the Eucharist and the other sacraments; the veneration of Mary, mother of God, and of the saints; the episcopal structure of the Church. We consider these Churches, together with the ancient Eastern Churches, as sister Churches of the local Catholic churches. Differences already existed in the first millennium, but at that time they were not perceived as a cause of division within the Church. The real and proper separation took place through a long process of estrangement and alienation, cased by a lack of mutual understanding and love, as Vatican Council II observed (UR 14). What is happening today is therefore, necessarily, a reverse process of mutual reconciliation.

The most important steps were taken during the Council. We must recall, for example, the meeting and exchange of correspondence between Pope Paul VI and the ecumenical patriarch Athenagoras, the famous "Tomos apapis," and the erasing from the Church's memory of the reciprocal excommunications of 1054, on the day before the conclusion of the Council. On this basis, it was possible to revive some forms of ecclesial communion from the first millennium: the exchange of visits, messages, and missives between the pope and the patriarch, especially the ecumenical patriarch; the cordial coexistence and collaboration of many local churches; the permission granted by the Catholic Church for the liturgical use of its places of worship by Orthodox Christians who live among us in diaspora, as a token of hospitality and communion. During the Angelus message delivered on the occasion of the feast of Saints Peter and Paul in 2007, Pope Benedict XVI emphasized that we are already in nearly full ecclesial communion with these Churches.

In the first ten years of dialogue, from 1980 to 1990, there was an emphasis and focus upon what we have in common in regard to the sacraments (the Eucharist above all) and the episcopal and priestly ministry. Nonetheless, the political upheaval of 1989-90 complicated our relations instead of simplifying them. The return of the Eastern Catholic Churches to public life, after years of brutal persecution and heroic resistance paid even at the price of blood, was seen by the Orthodox Churches as the threat of a new "uniatism." Thus, during the 1990's, in spite of the important clarifications brought by the meetings in Balamand (1993) and Baltimore (2000), dialogue stagnated. The crisis became more severe above all in relations with the Russian Orthodox Church after the canonical establishment of four [Catholic] dioceses in Russia in 2002.

Thanks be to God, after many patiently conducted efforts it was possible to resume dialogue last year; in 2006, a meeting was held in Belgrade, and about a month ago we met again in Ravenna. On this occasion, there has been a decisive improvement at the level of atmosphere and relationships, in spite of the departure of the Russian delegation for inter-Orthodox reasons. Thus has begun a promising third phase of dialogue.

The document from Ravenna, entitled "The ecclesiological and canonical consequences of the sacramental nature of the Church," marked an important breakthrough. For the first time, our Orthodox counterparts recognized a universal level of the Church, and admitted that at this level, too, there exists a protos, a primate, who can only be the bishop of Rome, according to the taxis [hierarchy] of the ancient Church. All of the participants are aware that this is only a first step, and that the journey to full ecclesial communion will still be long and difficult; nevertheless, with this document, we have laid a foundation for future dialogue. The theme that will be addressed in the next plenary session will be: "The role of the bishop of Rome in the communion of the Church in the first millennium."

Specifically in regard to the Moscow patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church, relations have been noticeably smoothed over in recent years. We could say that there is no longer a freeze, but a thaw. From our point of view, a meeting between the Holy Father and the patriarch of Moscow would be helpful. The Patriarchate of Moscow has never excluded such a meeting categorically, but maintains that before this it is opportune to resolve the problems that exist, in its view, in Russia, and above all in Ukraine. It must in any case be remembered that many meetings take place on other levels. Among these, we mention the recent visit of Patriarch Alexius to Paris, considered by both sides as an important step.

To sum up, we can affirm that there is still be the need for a continual purification of historical memory and for many prayers so that, on the common foundation of the first millennium, we may succeed in healing the fracture between East and West, and in restoring full ecclesial communion. In spite of the difficulties that remain, there is the strong and legitimate hope that, with the help of God and thanks to the prayer of so many of the faithful, the Church, after the division of the second millennium, will return in the third to breathing with both its lungs.

III.

We now move on to relations with the ecclesial Communities born from the Reformation. Encouraging signs have also appeared in this area. All the ecclesial Communities have expressed their interest in dialogue, and the Catholic Church is in dialogue with almost all of the ecclesial Communities. A certain agreement has been reached in the realm of the truths of faith, above all regarding the fundamental questions of the doctrine of justification. In many places, there is fruitful collaboration in the social and humanitarian sphere. There has been the gradual spread of an attitude of mutual trust and friendship, characterized by a profound desire for unity, which endures even though there are, from time to time, some harsh exchanges and bitter disappointments. In fact, the solid network of both personal and institutional relationships that has been developed is capable of withstanding the occasional tensions.

There has been no stoppage of the ecumenical situation, but rather a profound transformation. This is the same transformation experienced by the Church and by the world in general. I will limit myself here to citing just a few of its aspects.

1) After reaching a fundamental agreement on the doctrine of justification, we now find ourselves having to discuss again the classic controversial themes, above all that of ecclesiology and the ecclesial ministers (cf. UUS 66). In this regard, the "Five responses" released last July by the congregation for the doctrine of the faith have raised perplexity and have occasioned a certain discontent. The agitation that arose around this document was, for the most part, unjustified, because the text does not affirm anything new, but restates Catholic doctrine in a concise form. Nonetheless, it is to be hoped that the form, language, and public presentation of such declarations could be reviewed.

2) The different ecclesiologies necessarily lead to different views of the aims of ecumenism. So there is a problem in the fact that we lack a common concept of ecclesial unity as the goal to be attained. This problem is all the more serious if we consider that ecclesial communion is for us Catholics the precondition for Eucharistic communion, and that the absence of Eucharistic communion brings great pastoral difficulties, above all in the case of mixed couples and families.

3) While, on the one hand, we are struggling to overcome the old controversies, on the other hand new divergences are emerging in the ethical field. These concern in particular the questions related to the defense of life, to marriage, to the family, and to human sexuality. Because of these new divisions that are being created, common public witness is significantly weakened, if not impossible. The crisis taking place within the respective Communities is clearly exemplified by the situation that has arisen in the Anglican Communion, which is not an isolated case.

4) Protestant theology, marked during the first years of dialogue by the "Lutheran Renaissance" and by Karl Barth's theology of the Word of God, has now returned to the motifs of liberal theology. As a result, we are seeing that, on the Protestant side, the Christological and Trinitarian foundations that were until now common presuppositions are sometimes diluted. What we held to be our common heritage has begun to melt here and there like the glaciers in the Alps.

But strong countercurrents have also arisen in reaction to the phenomena mentioned above. All over the world there is the strong growth of evangelical groups, whose positions mostly coincide with ours on the fundamental dogmatic questions, especially in the ethical field, but are often very divergent on ecclesiology, the theology of the sacraments, biblical exegesis, and the understanding of tradition. There are high Church organizations that want to bring into Anglicanism and Lutheranism elements from the Catholic tradition, in regard to the liturgy and the ecclesial ministry. To these are added an increasing number of monastic communities which, often living according to the Benedictine rule, feel close to the Catholic Church. Furthermore, there are pietist communities that, in the face of the crisis over ethical questions, feel a certain discomfort in the Protestant ecclesial Communities; these look with gratitude to the clear statements of position by the Pope, of whom they had spoken in less kind tones not long ago.

All of these groups, together with the Catholic religious communities and the new spiritual movements, have recently created "spiritual networks," often grouped around monasteries like Chevetogne, Bose, and above all Taizé, and also in movements like the Focolari and Chemin neuf. In this way, we can say that ecumenism is returning to its origins in small groups of dialogue, prayer, and bible study. Recently these groups have even spoken publicly, for example at the great gathering of the movements in Stuttgart in 2004 and 2007. Thus promising new forms of dialogue are emerging beside the official talks, which are often becoming more difficult.

This general panorama thus shows us that there is not only an ecumenical rapprochement, but that there are also fragmentations and centrifugal forces at work. If we also take into account the many so-called "independent Churches" that continue to spring up, above all in Africa, and the proliferation of small groups that are often very aggressive, we come to realize that the ecumenical landscape today is very uneven and confused. This pluralism is nothing other than the mirror of the pluralist situation of so-called "postmodern" society, which often leads to religious relativism.

In the present context, there is therefore special importance in meetings such as the plenary assembly of the Ecumenical Council of Churches, which took place in February of last year in Porto Alegre (Brazil), the "Global Christian Forum," and the "European Ecumenical Assembly," held in September of 2007 in Sibiu/Hermannstadt (Romania). These conferences are meant to bring together in dialogue the various divergent groups, and, as much as possible, to hold together the ecumenical movement with its highlights and shadows, and with its new challenges in a situation that has changed, and is still changing rapidly.

IV.

Speaking of pluralism leads me back to the third wave of Christian history, or the spread of the Charismatic and Pentecostal groups, which, with about 400 million faithful all over the world, are in second place among Christian communities in numeric terms, and are witnessing exponential growth. With no common structure or central authority, these are very different from one another. They consider themselves as the fruit of a new Pentecost; consequently, the Baptism of the Spirit takes on a role of fundamental importance for them. Referring to them, Pope John Paul II had already noted that this phenomenon must not be considered in an exclusively negative way, because, beyond the undeniable problems, it attests to the desire for spiritual experience. But this does not remove the fact that, unfortunately, many of these communities have come to espouse a religion that promises earthly happiness.

With the classic Pentecostals, it has been possible to open official dialogue. With others, there are serious difficulties because of their somewhat aggressive missionary methods. The Pontifical Council for the promotion of Christian unity, in the face of this challenge, has organized on various continents seminars on ecumenism for bishops, theologians, and laypeople: in Latin America (Sao Paolo and Buenos Aires), in Africa (Nairobi and Dakar), in Asia (Seoul and Manila). The result of these seminars also appears in the final document of the general assembly of the bishops of Latin America and the Caribbean in Aparecida (2007). It is above all necessary for us to make a pastoral examination of conscience, and ask ourselves self-critically: why do so many Christians leave our Church? We should begin by asking ourselves, not what is wrong with the Pentecostals, but what our pastoral shortcomings are. How can we respond to this new challenge with a liturgical, catechetical, pastoral, and spiritual renewal?

V.

This question leads us to our final question: how should we continue the ecumenical journey? It is not possible to give a single reply. The situation is too diverse, depending on the geographical region, the cultural atmosphere, and the local churches. The individual bishops' conferences must be the ones to take on their responsibilities.

In principle, we should begin on the basis of our common heritage of faith, and remain faithful to that which, with the help of God, we have already achieved ecumenically. As much as possible, we must present a common witness to this faith in our increasingly secularized world. This also means, in the current situation, rediscovering and reinforcing the foundations of our faith. In fact, everything becomes unstable and empty of meaning if we do not have a firm and conscious faith in the living God, Triune and One, in the divinity of Christ, in the salvific power of the cross and the resurrection. For those who no longer know what sin is, and what entanglement in sin is, the justification of the sinner has no relevance.

It is only by basing ourselves upon our shared faith that we are able to talk about our differences. And this must be done in a clear but non-polemical way. We should not offend the sensibilities of others or discredit them; we should not point our fingers at what the others are not and what they do not have. We should, rather, give witness to the richness and beauty of our faith, in a positive and welcoming way. We expect the same attitude from others. If this happens, then we and our counterparts will be able to carry out, as the encyclical "Ut Unum Sint" (1995) says, an exchange not only of ideas but of gifts, which will enrich both sides (UUS 28; 57). Such an ecumenism of exchange is not an impoverishment, but a mutual enrichment.

In the dialogue founded upon spiritual exchange, theological dialogue will also have an essential role in the future. But this will be fruitful only if it is sustained by an ecumenism of prayer, of conversion of the heart, and of personal sanctification. Spiritual ecumenism is, in fact, the very soul of the ecumenical movement (UR 8; UUS 21-27), and we should be the first to promote this. Without a true spirituality of communion, which allows us to make room for the other without giving up our own identity, all of our efforts would be scattered in an arid and empty activism.

If we make our own the prayer that Jesus pronounced on the eve of his death, we need not lose courage and waver in our faith. As the Gospel says, we must have trust that whatever we ask in the name of Christ will be granted (John 14:13). When, where, and how will not be for us to decide. This must be left to him who is the Lord of the Church, and will gather his Church from the four winds. We must satisfy ourselves with doing our best, recognizing with gratitude the gifts we have received, meaning what ecumenism has achieved so far, and look to the future with hope. It is enough to look, with a minimum of realism, at the "signs of the times" to understand that there is no realistic alternative to ecumenism, and above all no alternative for faith.

__________
39 posted on 12/06/2007 7:06:12 AM PST by Traianus (YES I GOT HIM! BASHAR IS 666....)
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To: Traianus
The Pope could renounce to ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY to become a “PRIMUS INTER PARES”....(In effect THIS was the TRUE situation of Peter after the PENTECOST)

I almost think the Vatican will have to be overrun again before that will happen & IMO, it is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to Christian unity. The current & recent popes have been better than the ones they had that began building temporal power on top of the secular power structure. Saying that it was done in "defense" of the Church is the same nonsense that Muslims cite when rationalizing military style jihad in support of conquest.

I'm an outsider with a lot of interest in the dialog between Rome & the Eastern Orthodox, because the desire to bring them together again is the best hope in dealing with the question of absolute authority.

As to the Lutheran church (my church), a good share of it has fallen to non-Christians, specially in areas of the world where it is or once was the state church. Like the Catholic church before them, when church & state are too closely intermingled, the state always wins. Again, the rationalization that it was in defense of the faith is the same nonsense that Islam follows. While the largest synod in the US (ELCA) hasn't been corrupted by the exact same influence, I think compromises were made in order to form it from several smaller synods & they've never stopped making compromises. They seem to have jettisoned all of the confessions to grow among "enlightened" "mainstream" Americans & being the "big" synod has become more attractive than theology.

I have insufficient contact with Anglicans/Episcopals & Baptists of any stripe, much less Southern Baptists to know what's rumbling in the pews.

40 posted on 12/06/2007 7:54:46 AM PST by GoLightly
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