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To: DungeonMaster
Leaving co-redeemer and dispenser of all grace (that's a new one to me and I'll check out how and where it's used) aside for a minute, all these other things, to me, as just more reasons to thank God for His extravagant mercies, which seem to me always to outrun my wildest dreams and imaginings.

And, on the other hand, they seem to fall out naturally from the little that is in Scripture. I know we'll never settle this, but if Jesus is God and she is Jesus's Mother, what are the logical conclusions? If she was given grace to offer herself in obedience to God and consequently had Love itself grow within her and brought Love Himself into the world, then, in some way, as my daughter is a gift from my wife to me, so similarly Jesus is Mary's gift to us.

I don't the the intact hymen is de fide, and I'm an agnostic on it.

And why shouldn't she appear to people with messages? And as for any miracles - is it the opinion of most protestants that there are no more miracles? If so, I'd say it's a wonderful example of faith overrcoming experience. I've seen docs and nurses with their jaws dangling around their chests when a fatal tumor disappeared - just flat disappeared. And it did so in response to prayer, or, to be all Humean and Kantian and everything, after many prayers were made.

Now to say prayers made it happen, or that the people praying made it happen is as wrong as a beggar would be if he said his pleas caused the generosity of his benefactors.

And yet while, it seems some beggars are better at begging than others are, when we say Mary "performs" miracles, it seems to me that our offishul and liturgicaal texts take pains to say that she "performs" them largely by asking for them, and so GOD actually "performs" them.

In general I would say that I could, had I a mind to (had I a mind at all, but that's another problem), characterize the opinions of neo-orthodox Calvinism in a disparaging way, and string them together in a list, and so present them as outrageous AND as flying in the face of Scripture.

But what would be the point?

40 posted on 12/05/2007 5:05:39 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Holy Mary
Holy Mother of God;
Most honored of virgins;
Chosen daughter of the Father
Mother of Christ;
Glory of the Holy Spirit
Virgin daughter of Zion,
Virgin poor and humble,
Virgin gentle and obedient,
Handmaid of the Lord,
Mother of the Lord,
Helper of the Redeemed,
Full of grace,
Fountain of beauty,
Model of virtue,
Finest fruit of the redemption,
Perfect disciple of Christ,
Untarnished image of the Church,
Woman transformed,
Woman clothed with the sun,
Woman crowned with stars,
Gentile Lady,
Gracious Lady,
Our Lady,
Joy of Israel,
Splendor of the Church,
Pride of the human race,
Advocate of grace,
Minister of holiness,
Champion of God’s people,
Queen of love,
Queen of mercy,
Queen of peace,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs and prophets,
Queen of apostles and martyrs,
Queen of confessors and virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of all earth,
Queen of heaven,
Queen of the universe (pp. 190,191)

From the “Litany of Loreto”
Mother of the Church,
Mother of Divine grace,
Mother most pure;
Mother of chaste love;
Mother and virgin,
Sinless Mother,
Dearest of Mothers,
Model of motherhood,
Mother of good counsel;
Mother of our Creator;
Mother of our Savior;
Virgin most wise;
Virgin rightly praised;
Virgin rightly renowned;
Virgin most powerful;
Virgin gentle in mercy;
Faithful Virgin;
Mirror of justice;
Throne of wisdom;
Cause of our joy;
Shrine of the Spirit;
Glory of Israel,
Vessel of selfless devotion;
Mystical rose;
Tower of David;
Tower of ivory;
House of gold;
Ark of the covenant;
Gate of heaven;
Morning star;
Health of the sick;
Refuge of sinners;
Comfort of the troubled;
Help of Christians;
Queen of the rosary;


41 posted on 12/05/2007 5:30:24 AM PST by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Mad Dawg
I couldn't make any comments in that last post without messing up it's format. Those are just a small sample of her names and I'll be adding them to my first list to make the point that my first list makes.

The RCC seems to want a female to worship and they have found one in Mary.

42 posted on 12/05/2007 5:32:17 AM PST by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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To: Mad Dawg
In general I would say that I could, had I a mind to (had I a mind at all, but that's another problem), characterize the opinions of neo-orthodox Calvinism in a disparaging way, and string them together in a list, and so present them as outrageous AND as flying in the face of Scripture.

But what would be the point?

There is a point. If you see someone that you think is a brother but you see his faith clouded by untruth, you want to be a light to that person. I don't say that in denial of my own many spiritual weaknesses because I have many. I have been unfaithful to fellowship at my church and have not impressed upon my oldest kids the importance of going to church. So now that they are older they all have jobs on Sundays and seem to be drifting away.

44 posted on 12/05/2007 5:41:56 AM PST by DungeonMaster (WELL I SPEAK LOUD, AND I CARRY A BIGGER STICK, AND I USE IT TOO!)
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