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To: tyke
Human beings are animals, true, but we are animals with a brain that can reason, and that makes all the difference. Civilization is the result, and was only possible because we have developed, through thousands of years of trial and error, an ethical system that allows people to live together without killing each other all the time.

A truly ignorant statement concerning the history of mankind. Most all civilizations not based on Christianity have failed to hold up the Golden Rule as a virtue, let alone practice it. It took 1900 years for Christianity to completely reshape Western Civilization to the point that treating others as you would be treated became so accepted that silly atheists could claim that its "just natural".

I'm flattered that atheists have chosen to borrow the tenants of Christianity and call them their own, but it doesn't change the facts. Without a divine moral code that rests on there being something greater than oneself, there is absolutely nothing beneficial about being ethical when no one is looking.

I'll never knowingly trust an atheist with my welfare or the welfare of anyone else. They ultimately have no underlying principle greater than their own welfare. Assertions to the contrary can logically be explained as subterfuge to gain false trust.

54 posted on 11/27/2007 5:28:40 PM PST by SampleMan (We are a free and industrious people. Socialist nannies do not become us.)
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To: SampleMan
A truly ignorant statement concerning the history of mankind. Most all civilizations not based on Christianity have failed to hold up the Golden Rule as a virtue, let alone practice it. It took 1900 years for Christianity to completely reshape Western Civilization to the point that treating others as you would be treated became so accepted that silly atheists could claim that its "just natural".

I would be wary of discharging accusations of ignorance to others when you respond with an answer like that. First of all, our society, as imperfect as it still is, has borrowed influences from all sorts of society. Indeed, it's very core, democracy (utterly alien to Biblical nations) was taken from the pagan Greeks, along with our jury system via the equally pagan Vikings. I don't doubt for one moment that the Judeo-Christian influence is important and widespread, but it wasn't all good, as a thousand years of support for slavery will testify. Much of the reshaping has been done in direct opposition to the Christian orthodoxy of the time.

In any case, do you think that the great non-Christian civilizations were able to flourish absent the Golden Rule? Perhaps the ancient civilizations do not stand up to scrutiny by today's standards, but they would not have achieved all they did without some level of altruism between people and without groups of people working together for the common good.

As I said, it's been a long history of trial and error, with emphasis on the error.

58 posted on 11/27/2007 7:56:12 PM PST by tyke
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To: SampleMan
Without a divine moral code that rests on there being something greater than oneself, there is absolutely nothing beneficial about being ethical when no one is looking.

Hmm. Well, we've already covered empathy, guilt, and the threat of revenge (no crime is ever completely foolproof). Add to that the undoubted pleasure people get when they do the right thing or are altruistic towards others.

And since when has belief in a divine moral code stopped anyone from doing bad things? Need I repeat the list I gave you earlier?

I'll never knowingly trust an atheist with my welfare or the welfare of anyone else. They ultimately have no underlying principle greater than their own welfare. Assertions to the contrary can logically be explained as subterfuge to gain false trust.

Well that is load of nonsense. Given the choice of a so-so Christian surgeon and an top-notch surgeon who just happened to be an atheist to perform delicate brain surgery on your child, you would choose the atheist surgeon every time (or would you really put your own faith before the welfare of your child?)

Someone's professed religious belief (or lack thereof) is no measure of their competence or honesty. How many cheating and embezzling pastors do you need to convince you of that? Because the list is a long one.

59 posted on 11/27/2007 8:13:25 PM PST by tyke
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