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To: Greg F
Returning to one of your earlier posts, you asked me if I had not ever felt like hitting someone who made me angry. Absolutely, all humans feel like harming others at times, just like all humans also feel like helping others at times. Historically, the help has been given mostly to members of one's ingroup while the harm is directed towards members of the outgroup--parochial altruism. This explains why groups of humans through all of human history have repeatedly gone to war and committed horrible atrocities against each other.

So knowing these things about human nature, which scenario is more likely?


A nomadic group that has been wandering the wilderness for years comes upon a fertile land which unfortunately is inhabited already. In order to get this land for themselves, they go to war. In the process they destroy whole cities down to the last inhabitant. In order to whip up enthusiasm for the killing, the leaders of this group tell them that their warfare is condoned by God and that he will help them destroy the enemy. This same highly effective strategy has been used by groups through all of history--American Indians, Aztecs, the Conquistadors, the British imperialists, the Crusaders, the Romans, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Arabs. As a result, the invaders successfully drive out the inhabitants and take over the area.
A benevolent, loving, just God has chosen a group of people to lead them to a Promised Land. Unfortunately, it is already inhabited. The people there are not better nor worse than any other group at that time--parochial altruists, worshiping some benevolent gods and some warlike gods, treating their neighbors with some consideration yet killing or enslaving those of other groups without much concern. This loving, just God orders his people to go to war with the inhabitants. However, they are not only to kill everyone who takes up a sword against them, but kill all noncombatants in the cities, even the babies. At this point God has told them to kill every last person, but later he relaxes his rules and says when they go to war they can take prisoners as slaves and force into marriage any attractive young women they find. These rules hold for centuries, but then suddenly this God changes his mind and killing, slavery, and rape are no longer acceptable.

It is because of this that I left Christianity. At that time I was reading about Islam and thought it a horrible religion, but realized that if I were to try to argue that someone would just ask me, "What about the Canaanites?" So I sat down to try to figure out once and for all how that genocide could be good. I ultimatel realized that the Hebrews were acting like any other group at that time, and showed no signs of being under divine command--at least not by any God that I would want to be associated with! I am more of a moral absolutist, and the Bible simply does not support that.

122 posted on 11/28/2007 8:32:59 AM PST by ahayes ("Impenetrability! That's what I say!")
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To: ahayes

It is because of this that I left Christianity. At that time I was reading about Islam and thought it a horrible religion, but realized that if I were to try to argue that someone would just ask me, “What about the Canaanites?” So I sat down to try to figure out once and for all how that genocide could be good.
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Well, the killing of the Canaanites was good because God commanded it, it was within God’s plan, and God is just and loving. There can be no injustice in it. You can spin all sorts of hypotheticals erasing any moral qualms — God stands outside of time and saw the life of each Canaanite in full and exercised justice. All have sinned including the Canaanites and all deserve punishment so God’s mercy is what is amazing, not death. God bestowed his grace upon the Canaanites and they are with him now. Ultimately you do not know and have to trust God or live without him.

You left Christianity, not because you couldn’t think through the sovereignty of God as a logical matter but because you did not have faith that God exists.
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I ultimatel realized that the Hebrews were acting like any other group at that time, and showed no signs of being under divine command—at least not by any God that I would want to be associated with!
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You credit the history of the Canaanites, but not the history of wandering in the desert with manna from heaven or the parting of the Red Sea. These are sure signs of being under divine command. You credit what gives you problems in faith but not what gives you hope.
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I am more of a moral absolutist, and the Bible simply does not support that.
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But it does.

Mark 12

The Greatest Commandment

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29”The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

32”Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.


136 posted on 11/28/2007 9:26:37 AM PST by Greg F (Duncan Hunter is a good man.)
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