Women priests and their continuing battle

Telegraph ^ | November 12, 2007 | Rebecca Fowler

[Unam Sanctam]

Perhaps the single greatest sign of acceptance was the success of The Vicar of Dibley, the comedy series in which Dawn French's Geraldine Granger ran a country parish. At its peak, it attracted 15 million viewers - an audience the Church could only dream of seeing in the pews.

Dawn French is very funny, and I enjoy the Vicar of Dibley, but just because I watch it it does not mean that I agree with women's ordination. A priest should be an "alter Christus", and I do think that the sexes have complementary roles. I would really like to see a renaissance of good orthodox female religious orders.

[WileyPink]

1Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Simple enough for me...even for a simple minded Baptist!

Happy Thanksgiving all. Be Safe

In Christ,

WileyPink

[Secret Agent Man]

“You can no more ordain a woman than a pork pie.”

He’s right. The qualifications for church leaders and elders are “HUSBAND of one wife”, etc, etc...

It’s the same kind of thing with the gays trying to redefine a term to fit their agenda. They want to redefine marriage to something that it is not and never has been, and these people redefined what a leader of the church is supposed to be, into something it never was to be.

That does not mean women can’t have ministries, or teach sunday schools, or have their organizations that focus on certain things. But all of this should be occurring under a pastor/elder/overseer, who should be a good man of God. Not all men god set the criteria. Just like God set the criteria for others who served him (Levites). Priests could only be men from the Levite tribe, even though there may have been better male candidates from the other tribes. God has a right to set the qualifications for those who serve Him.

[AnalogReigns]

This should not call merely his conclusions into question, but his method.

I dunno, God uses all kinds of things, sacred and profane to teach us. I'm just happy that this man I respect greatly has come to the same conclusion I've had since in scripture I first investigated the matter.

This canon is a solid evangelical. Many otherwise biblically sound people were bamboozled by the feminist sirens since the '60s. Thanks be to God the sirens are now wearing haggard and hoarse.

[AnalogReigns]

I remember there was an Episcopal parish just down the road, and quite suddenly, they took down the sign and announced they were The Catholic Church of St Mary the Virgin.

They probably simply sold their building to the Catholics and sent the dozen or so old folk attending the Episcopal Church in another parish.

The 'piskies do, I think, have a lock on the best architecture of Church buildings in America.

It's just a real shame places like The National Cathedral in DC are in the Enemy's hands...

[BelegStrongbow]

BelegStrongboww: From what I have learned about the apostolic source of the bishop who conferred my orders upon me, I am persuaded that they are in fact quite apostolic and authentically catholic. Shall we dispute further?

NYer: I would be interested in hearing the case made for the authenticity of such a claim.

Then you would be edified by this: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/saepius.htm

Saepius Officio was the response made in 1897 to Apostolicae Curiae issued in 1896. So it has been some time since the case was made.

Perhaps the book reviewed at this location would also be edifying on the subject: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3818/is_199807/ai_n8797427

Here is the ordinal for Priests as printed in 1549 (that is, as Cranmer translated it from the Latin ordinal then in use): http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1549/Priests_1549.htm

It will be noted that this oath is exacted of the ordinand:

The Bishoppe. Will you then geve your faythfull dylygence alwayes, so to mynister the doctryne and Sacramentes, and the discipline of Christ, as the lord hath commaunded, and as thys realme hath received the same, accordyng to the commaunde mentes of God, so that you may teache the people committed to youre cure and charge, with al diligence to kepe and observe the same?

Aunswere. I wil so doe, by the helpe of the Lord.

It would appear from this that the intent was to ordain men to minister catholic sacraments to English congregations and that the only minister deemed authoritative to do so was a Bishoppe.

The 1928 Book has substantially the same text and the actual words of consecration are shown in the enclosed PDF: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928Standard/priests.pdf

The order for consecrating bishops is also informative: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928Standard/bishops.pdf

To all this could be appended the list of bishops in the line my bishop descends but that would be tedious. Suffice to say the line reaches back through Cardinal Pole, through a large number of Roman bishops (mostly in France), ultimately terminating in John the Apostle.

Perhaps the whole point is that whatever individual Anglican clergy have personally believed, just as there have been Romans with defective personal beliefs, the lex orandi of Anglicanism has always literally been that of sanctifying grace being necessary for perfection from birth through death and made available through the Body and Blood of Christ as consecrated upon altars by a priesthood acting alter Christus to do as He told us to do. It is a tumultuous disgrace that so many Anglican divines can so interpret literal text in so errant a way as to suggest that women could ever be priests. They can no more be priests than they can be bicycles. That does not make the text false (they did have to issue a new version in order to go on doing what some just went ahead and did, without any approval), it simply means that several generations of humans have taken it into their heads to ‘improve’ on God’s Word. Their errors make any ordinations and/or consecrations made in the future defective in their own lines, but such lateral defect cannot impeach consecrations and ordinations made through apostolic and catholic lines.

[AnAmericanMother]

. . . . a inordinately high number of women who are just plain daft. . . .

Look at this face:

Would you trust this simpering ninny with a deadly secret in the confessional? Would you take her advice?

My personal experience in the Episcopal Church was the same -- because our former parish was the diocesan training parish for newly ordained priests, I saw every woman ordained in our former diocese for 28 years. With ONE exception (but she was still a pro-abort) they were ALL incompetent silly women who could neither preach nor counsel. Many had gone into the ministry in an attempt to chase away their own demons, many were doctrinaire feminists who did not hear a call but simply got into the business to prove a point, one was an out and out radical feminist lesbian (at least the parish fired HER).

All in all, a disappointing experience and not worth the trouble. Guess the Catholic Church had it right all along (what a surprise!)

[SaltyJoe]

I’m still petitioning God to experience the joy of giving birth to children. Haven’t found any men who’d join me, yet.

Any guys out there interested in being pregnant?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller, Bueller?

[neb52]

There are three of us on this board that go to SMV. Not sure about the third, but Mr. Chan and I at least were not a part of the parish at the time it convert(nor are we former Anglicans). I don’t know how they kept there property and have wondered this since I starting there, but perhaps the piskie Fort Worth Bishop(almost always trends conservatively) allowed a method to do so. Atonement(I think there is one or two people here) built their own parish in San Antonio and I don’t know about the other Anglican Use parishes as regards to their current property.

[FloreatIacobus]

More people go to church in Birmingham, AL on a Sunday than in all of England.

Are you sure? Wikipedia gives the population of Birmingham, AL, as a tad bit over 200,000 - both the C.ofE. and the R.C.C. get within spitting distance either way of a million people each Sunday...which is ten times the whole population.

[FloreatIacobus]

There has certainly been a softening in attitude. While many maintain that the Church never had the authority to tamper with the priesthood, nearly all acknowledge that women clergy have made a significant human contribution.

What an utterly ridiculous article - packed full of errors. I'd expect better from The Daily Telegraph - their usual religion journalist is pretty good. The above is typical - acknowledging that priestesses have pastoral skills is utterly irrelevant to the objections which opponents have. It's not that we think that these women are bad, or that they're useless - rather we simply think that it is impossible for them to receive Holy Orders, they are not Priests. Recognising that we've got some terrific pastoral women in our parishes is not a softening of attitude - I've known a few excellent women, but I don't think that they are Priests.

[FloreatIacobus]

Last year I spoke to a Canon with the C-of-E (living here in America now) who told me he had once supported women's ordination, but now he has changed.

This is the story which is never told. I was 12 when the vote went through, and not understanding the issues involved I supported it, along with hundreds of other people since then I have realised my error.

[nanetteclaret]

Here is the history of the church, from their website:

http://www.stmarythevirgin.org/

“Formed as a Mission Church in 1961, St. Mary’s was originally known as St. Bartholomew’s Episcopal Church, and it became a Parish in 1969 as a part of the Diocese of Dallas. In 1983 the Diocese of Dallas was divided, and the Diocese of Ft. Worth, which includes Arlington, was formed.

The Reverend Allan R.G. Hawkins, from England, was named rector in 1980, and in 1986 the parish name was changed to Saint Mary the Virgin. Fr. Hawkins is married to Jose and they have two grown children.

The Right Reverend Clarence C. Pope, second Episcopal Bishop of Ft. Worth, broke ground for the new Church Building in June, 1990. The first services were held in the new church at Christmas 1990.

Then, in an historic decision in the summer of 1991, the Parish decided to leave the Episcopal Church and to seek full communion in the Roman Catholic Church as a Personal Parish for the Anglican Use, under terms of the Pastoral Provision of 1980.

Although a number of other such parishes had previously been formed, St. Mary’s is the first Episcopal Parish to have transferred corporately into the Roman Catholic Church — and to have retained its property in so doing.

Members were all received and St. Mary the Virgin was formally erected as a parish of the Catholic Diocese of Ft. Worth on June 12, 1994, by the most Reverend Joseph P. Delaney. A few Days later, June 29 (SS Peter and Paul) Bishop Delaney ordained Fr. Hawkins to the Catholic priesthood. And he dedicated the building in a special ceremony at the end of October in the same year.”

I, too, am a member of SMV and was Episcopalian before converting. I vaguely remember when the church converted, since it was discussed in my parish. There were a lot of Episcopalians from my parish who “crossed the Tiber” in those years, so it was definitely a topic of conversation.

[Peanut Gallery]

It was after, from 91-94.

[Peanut Gallery]

Yes, it was, er... is.

[Peanut Gallery]

Howdy neighbor! I think there must be some sort of provision for it, since the Diocese of Dallas did something similar with Christ Church.

Christ Church had to purchase their property in order to keep it, but still, they kept it without a lawsuit. Faith (in Allen) was not able to keep their property.

[Patriotic1]

That does not mean women can’t have ministries,

Agreed. Yes, these women say they feel a call to serve, but it is quite possible to serve as something other than a priest. To insist on priesthood, no matter how much you may believe it to be ok to be a woman and a priest, suggests that you are placing something other than God foremost in your heart and worship.

[Patriotic1]

Let us pray for these misguided daughters of God.

[AnalogReigns]

I guess even TEC with all it’s legal muscle didn’t want to sue the Roman Catholic Church over the property....they might have a bit more muscle, legal and popular, eh?