Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins
Also, it's funny that just yesterday a couple of Mittbots decided to "mess around with Jim", LOL. Maybe they intend to overwhelm with numbers, you think, Jim?
“I never cease to be amazed by the great numbers of fools here who have taken it upon themselves to define and codify Christianity from their own limited and quite often ignorant point of view.”
What standard of expertise do you have about Christianity? None.
I never cease to be amazed by people who try and define Christianity who do not practice it. I guess since I am a WASP I can speak on the tribulations of the black woman and what they believe, you know since I am not one.
You sir are the fool that is heading for a warmer climate when your time here is done.
She and her hubbie got their butts successfully sued for the infringement of copyrights under which were protected several of the Church documents they attempted to pirate, adulterate, misrepresent, and hijack. They played with fire and got burned -- by the same copyright custodial firm retained by both the NY and LA Times and by other entities that own large amounts of copyrighted text.
The money that they had to cough up may well have served as the cash payment for the construction of a new LDS chapel in their neighborhood.....
I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.
...
So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself.
...
I was corrected.
I continued to go to that Baptist Church for a little while longer....but ultimitely moved across the street to the Methodist church, where I became a member and still go there..even though I get annoyed once in a while.
I won’t attempt to discuss everything you’ve written because you’ve written so much. Obviously, you’ve already thought a lot about this and I’m glad you are a serious person. So consider this my attempt to better understand your viewpoint and not just playing devils advocate or trying to play gotcha with your positions on Romney/Mormons/Religion/etc.
Romney was in MA (a deep, deep blue state) and he bent himself to appear more in tune with voters (GOP governors in MA have been RINOs, long before Mitt showed up). He obviously has flipflopped on most social issues and he is going to have to run like hell away from his health care ‘reform’ system (which is already in debt after only 12 months and the mandates haven’t even started to kick in).
So, is Mitt a typical Blue State GOPer? Or does his religion have something to do with this? I mean, it doesn’t appear that Mitt is wishywashy about his faith as an LDS. But he was openly is disagreement with his own faith in his actions in office. How do we reconcile this?
Mitt also was very, very successful in the private sector. Its really hard to dispute that this guy is a seriously buttkicking guy as an executive/CEO. But what part of this has to do with him being LDS? I’m sure he believes that his faith and personal ethics have pushed him to work harder to support his family, etc, etc but what can be actually credit his LDS faith with having made him successful. (My own take would be a family ethic and the work ethic that you see in conservative and orthodox Jewish families which require men have a career and not just a job. But I don’t see anything unique about being LDS which lends itself to his actions).
And lets say LDS is a cult. Apparently it is in your view of Christianity. Christians were the original cult. I’m Jewish and more than 2000 years ago you guys showed up and for the first 1000 years you were the outcast and perceived nutbags. (careful, we’re all friends here...) Christians believed in reincarnation if you go back far enough so there are ‘reforms’ in most all religions which are striking.
Personally, I don’t believe any part of the whole Smith/Moroni/Nephi story. But it is a faith and its causing people to live better lives at least here on Earth. It absolutely can be argued that it’s all going to be a huge mistake in the hereafter. But it’s pretty clear that the LDS are positively influencing the lives of their followers as it relates to the rest of us as Americans and fellow citizens.
So, how much of the LDS faith do you want to count against a guy like Mitt? Is it MORE than his flipflopping in MA? More than his apparent super-scripted responses to literally every question?
Again, I ask because I’m not a Christian and this guy doesn’t do anything to do in re his LDS faith. I live around lots of LDS and I see the good and bad parts like I do with Catholics and my own tribe (which most piss me off). But I don’t have to calculate Mitt is relation to his faith in order to decide whether or not to support him like other Christians do because it doesn’t gore my ox, so to speak.
I look forward to your insights on this.
Here is the correction you asked for. Sometimes is pays to go to the source, instead of those who would villify it.
He, Joseph Smith, personally showed them to 8 witnesses, which witnesses recorded their testimonies here:
Further, 3 witnesses were shown the plates by the power of God, by the same angel, former prophet historian, that both hid up the record in 421 AD, and told Joseph about them, where they were, etc. Their testimony is recorded here:
The record, which was translated from said plates can be read here:
I find many who claim to know, but are ignorant, and many who sit on the sidelines who know a lot.
There were dozens of alternate versions of Christian doctrine in circulation during the first few centuries - each of which was sincerely held to be true by its adherents.
In fact, the concept of the Trinity held by most Christians today was a minority view, considered heresy, for some time.
So in attacking the LDS doctrines it's not correct to maintain that there is an unbroken line, since the crucifixion, of consistent Christian truth about the nature of God. It just does not hold up.
BTW I am not a Mormon, have some major issues with them too.....
And when were they part of the Canon?
First of all, have the Cutlerites, the Strangites, the Rigdonites, the Bickertonites, the Reorganized Church (now called "The Church of Christ"), all the polygamous Mormon offshoots, and the dozens of other LDS break-off groups all come home to roost so that all LDS are one happy family now?
Secondly, you assume that all these groups were formed under "break-off" or hostile conditions. They weren't. Some were formed to emphasize something distinct of who God is or some purpose God was putting forth. When you look at charter schools, I see many of them stressing some distinctive. And it's not a putdown to the other schools for that particular charter school to offer some specialty in the arts or music, for example.
I never cease to be amazed by the great numbers of fools here who have taken it upon themselves to define and codify Christianity from their own limited and quite often ignorant point of view.
If I'm not mistaken, Jesus said accountability was coming even for someone uttering/labeling another as "fool."
And such does not even begin to include the inhumanity visited on a grand scale over the centuries by self-proclaimed arbiters of "mainstream Christianity" against non-Christians and Christians who do not meet the criteria of those who would wickedly other childen of God.
Well, we're not hear to defend everyone who for centuries have called themselves "Christians," now are we? Elsewise, Joseph Smith or the Jehovah's Witnesses founders or Mary Baker Eddy would never have had to be called on the carpet by anyone, would they have? (Oh, and BTW, since a number of folks in here call themselves Christian, by your OWN standard you are telling us that you desire to treat all with "humanity" and I don't think calling some Christian representatives as those treat who others "wickedly" is very edifying. Do you?)
These they label and villify as cultists and "lost sheep" to the scrap pile in a manner that is anything but Christ-like.........
Scrap pile? No. Jesus says those who are well have no need of a physician. So if religionists, be they LDS, JWs, Christian Science, or "Christian" see themselves as spiritually well when before God they are not, then why would they go to the great physician? You don't blame the doctor if he gives you a bum physical or physiological diagnose, do you?
If you look carefully at the book of Acts, you'll see how Paul interacted with "religionists": "And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks...Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. And when they opposed..." (Acts 18:4-6) "And a certain Jew named Apollos...being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord...and he began to speak boldly in the synagogue...he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ." (Acts 18:24-28) "And he (Paul) went into the synagogue and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. But when divers were hardened and believed not..." (Acts 19:8-9)
Now just because Paul & Apollos disputed, argued, dialogued with the religionists of their day, and did so boldly and publicly, doesn't mean they were out to "vilify" anybody to a "scrap pile." But it does mean that before a spiritual addiction can be broken, the Holy Spirit needs to convict folks of religiosity, of pride, of self-effort, of idolatry (putting a prophet before Jesus Christ), of ANYTHING that gets in the way of a spiritual relationship with the REAL Jesus Christ...the Christ who created us and all beings. The Christ who has planned to marry His Church, the Bride. And the Spirit who indwells REAL LIVE people as temples...vs. temples literally devoted to the dead 24/7.
I thought that FR was intended for discussion of conservative thought. This thread isn't news, a current event, political in nature, or anything else other than the O.K. Corral for theological prize-fighters.
Perhaps we ought to get back to the days when FR required topical discussions from a legitimate source rather than a superstitious glurge battle based upon the ramblings from someone's blog site.
It is becoiming obvious that Mormons, if they cannot force their Bishop Romney upon the Republican party nomination, will burn down Christian Conservatism as best they can as ‘our punishment for not tolerating’ their heresies. The Romney candidacy is a frightening example of the childish ‘if I can’t have my way I’ll punish you by holding my breath.’ The implications are, however, disaterous for this nation unless we firmly reject Romney now, before the DNC can exploit the vast differences in Christianity and Mormonism.
You need to read the Book of James. That’s in the New Testament.
I went from Baptist as a child to a Methodist. My children were sprinkled in the Methodist Church. After the last several years of watching the Methodist Church Conferences become more and more liberal ( like ordaining women pastors ) and listening to watered down don’t offend anyone sermons, I went back to the Baptist. My children were re-baptized since they were done before the age of awareness and it was not a full immersion baptism.
That does not take away from her being an expert in the practices of Mormonism and being able to offer what they see as truth compared to Christian doctrine.
These stupid battles have gone on here for as long as I have been here.
I usually avoid these discussions, since it quickly turns into arguments about "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin"....or it ends up reminding me of a bunch of old time "Pharasees" boasting about their salvation.
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