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To: annalex; jo kus; wmfights; Campion; sandyeggo; kosta50; Kolokotronis
The issue is whether the Early Church was hierarchical, not whether hierarchies also exist in Protestant settings.

My point was just to show that we also have leaders in our churches, a "type" of hierarchy, but we do not have a hierarchal system such as you do today. If the early churches revolved around a single Bishop (respectively), who led and delegated various responsibilities to "staff", then I was thinking that would be more comparable to the way Protestants do it today. However, I am still a little unclear on the role of the laity (if any) in choosing priests and Bishops. As I'm sure you know, in many/most Protestant churches the laity has sole discretion.

After St. Peter we had a short-lived papacy of St. Linus of which we know next to nothing; he was succeeded by St. Clement who was controlling things in Corinth over the heads of the local bishops, so definitely we had a papacy in the person of St. Clement, while the papacy of St. Peter is clear from the scripture.

But did St. Clement and other early Popes exercise power in any way comparable to modern day Popes? I can't imagine a communication system was established enough such that the early Popes could have "ruled" on something, and then word got out to all Christian churches everywhere. I also can't imagine the Orthodox going along with this. :)

27 posted on 11/07/2007 12:05:04 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
If the early churches revolved around a single Bishop (respectively), who led and delegated various responsibilities to "staff", then I was thinking that would be more comparable to the way Protestants do it today.

A great example of how the early churches operated is in Acts. The council in Jerusalem reveals that decision making was done as a group and no one person made authoritative decisions on their own, a presbyterian system. IOW, a sacerdotal order is unknown, it was the process of declaring an episcopal ordination that established the distinction between the laity and differing levels of clergy. Until this happened a "bishop" was an elder who had no special authority other than to conduct the service.

The development of "Metropolitans" is what really accelerated the process, until then the presbyters and bishops were viewed as equals. A metropolitan was a bishop who was appointed to preside at a meeting involving a group of churches where there was a theological issue. What happened was the "metropolitans" took their titles home with them and claimed superior authority. Over time the episcopal order was established and a system where the clergy assumed the role of the Holy Spirit of maintaining the people in their relations with God was formalized.

29 posted on 11/07/2007 7:21:13 AM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; wmfights; Campion; sandyeggo; kosta50; Kolokotronis
Catholic and Orthodox clergy are all ordained by other clergy already ordained, going back to the Apostles. This produces an hierarchy unlike any other, going all the way, physically, to Christ.

did St. Clement and other early Popes exercise power in any way comparable to modern day Popes?

An ability to reach over the head of the local bishop is what defines papacy. St. Clement exercised that. There are some aspects of papal power that were perhaps acquired later, especially in the West, but the fundamental power of the papacy as a single authority above bishops dates back to the very first popes. some aspects fo papal powere were also lost; for example, the papal states were lost, and with decline of monarchies the ability to influence politics also declined.

30 posted on 11/07/2007 1:33:20 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea-Luke14.php)
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