Posted on 10/29/2007 9:10:41 PM PDT by Salvation
***Remind me again, what do we disagree about? hehe***
The fact that we do not have the same definition of grace.
The fact that Sola Gratia, my position, is not salvation by the use of grace.
There are others.
I’m making sure that we are speaking the SAME language so that any conversation we have is a meaningful one.
My position is that, not only is the provision from God, but the power is as well. The Father Elected men to be saved; the Son made provision for them (Limited Atonement); and the Holy Spirit provides the power to make it real (Irresistible Grace & Preservation of the Saints). Grace itself is Salvific & effectual. When a man is grace by God for salvation then he is saved.
I don’t believe that if I will _________ I will be saved; I believe that because I am saved I will __________.
My theology has no question about what I am to do with the Lord Jesus for his sacrifice. My theology is about what the Lord intends to do with me.
LOL! I'll let that speak for itself.
Ping for reference
He's usually depicted as a diminutive infant in the lap of an overpowering, larger-than-life mother Mary (if that tells you anything.)
Responding to another post, I was appalled by the unbiblical depiction of Christ in Mel Gibson's movie. Completely unworthy of the Son of God.
Trent:
CANON 9:
"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
God in the Scriptures:
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).
Trent: CANON 12:
"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed."
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
'For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples': for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
Trent; Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
God:
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
Trent; Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
God:
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
Trent;
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
God:
"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3)
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
Trent:
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
God:
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).
Trent:
Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
Trent declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned. Trent has declared anathema on God and has sealed it's eternal fate as a lost, apostate, false religion.
***Responding to another post, I was appalled by the unbiblical depiction of Christ in Mel Gibson’s movie. Completely unworthy of the Son of God.***
Funny. I rather enjoyed it. What turned you off?
Good post...The men who made up the coucil of Trent clearly disagree with the Word of God...
I’ll stick with the Word of God and let Trent be anathema...
The Scriptures are clear that faith must be followed by action in order to be a saving faith.
If you believe that, as Paul said, a dispensation of the Gospel will be committed to you...
Faith is not works...Faith must NOT be followed by action to be a saving Grace...But faith WILL be followed by a change of heart that may lead to action...
Your view is that you are working FOR salvation...The right view is that you will work because OF salvation...
I would say that the article has all the ideas and the Holy Scripture to back it up. Not much for debate or to criticize.
Question:
Why would one ever want to criticize another’s religion??
Pointing out errors in thinking is not criticism, but merely putting the other point of view (the truth) out there.
Funny thing — all the Biblical quotes are listed with the article!
I am the messenger. Please don’t criticize.
So the questions I have is why do you think these quotes are conclusive and yet unpersuasive to the council of Trent, and why did you post them?
If we had to give up saying that those who disagree with us are nasty people and had to base our arguments on the kind of conversation that people who are working together to try to understand one another and to try to grow closer, from their different starting points, to Jesus, would your post be different?
And if we are not people trying to understand one another and to grow closer to Jesus from our differing starting points, then what are we doing here? I mean other than calling each other nasty names.
I'm serious.
Or put it another way: Repetition does not persuade me. Nasty names do not persuade me. Well reasoned, patient, careful deliberate argument persuades me. Do think there is anything good in this thread for me?
**Answer this question: What must I do to be saved?**
Please read the article. It tells you and had the Scripture to back it up.
**It was a strawman because it conveniently misrepresented the positions of others for the purpose of establishing advantage in debate. **
It doesn’t misrepresent Catholics.
What is the problem? Perhaps, just perhaps, it really doesn’t misrepresent you either. Perhaps you have received faulty teaching along the way.
By whose authority are you making your statement?
I believe that the crucifix tells the real story. It shows Christ suffering........setting the example. We must all take up our Cross in life and carry it willingly.
Please pray about it.
**Some actually do deny not just the ressurection, but also the birth, but I make no such inferance in general.**
What on earth are you talking about. Some of you have the craziest ideas about Catholics.
Where did you get these opinions? Or are they your own?
Your own interpretation of Catholics according to the misinformation you might have been fed at a Protestant Church.
I will pray for you.
I'm suspecting that this particular picture has Saint Dominic and some other Dominican depicted as present at the crucifixion. Now I think very few people think that a 13th century saint was also at Calvary. So I would venture to suggest that this is not meant to be a literal or concrete presentation of what the crucifixion actually looked like.
Also, fashions in the representation of the male body vary - as does Church art. This artist might have been trying to say one particular thing. But I doubt he would have the pride to claim that he had captured everything about the "Work of Christ" in this one painting. So in the sense that nearly every statement, if not every statement, is incomplete, then is every statement a lie?
IN theology as in few other undertakings, the subject of discourse is fundamentally ineffable, and every statement about it will be incomplete and inadequate. The empty cross portrays the victory of Love. But there is something good to say about the lengths Love is willing to go to achieve the victory, especially if one believes that our sufferings, are sanctified in union with Christ's suffering.
In any event, there is real verbal content in the article. Why the interest in the painting?
We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.Would you comment on that, please?
You are trying to change the subject.
We are talking about Faith, Grace and Works.
Please, what do you think of the statements in the article?
“Your view is that you are working FOR salvation...The right view is that you will work because OF salvation...”
It is obvious you did not read my post. Nor did you do the homework assigned ;) I DO because I Love! And as is in Jn 14:15-21 Those that love the Lord obey his commands.
I have read some of your past post and see that you much enjoy quarreling. I will not quarrel with you as it is a sign of spiritual immaturity (1 Co 3:1-3). We will have to agree to disagree.
Have a good evening sir! Tonight is ladies night and it is my turn to host. I have some good vino and tomato brochette awaiting. Goodnight and God Bless.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.