Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54
An article is circulating around the Internet that carries the title “Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog.” It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel National News.1 The article begins with the following prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and fundamentalist end-time assurances about the end:
US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.
M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs of the coming of Christ.”2 In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These.3 His chapter on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969. Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting. This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being set for what could explode into World War III at any moment.”4 In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, followed a similar prophetic script:
Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description of Gog perfectly.5
This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy. The question is, does the Bible teach it?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel. Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that “the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage [Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some suspect that it may be on our horizon.”6 Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century, the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice. In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the end-time bad guys.7 In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the forces of Magog-France.8 For most of the twentieth century, Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations in the past is legion.9
As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change, the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence that modern-day prophecy writers are not “profiling the future through the lens of Scripture” but through the ever-changing headlines of the evening news.10
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.
The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are made of wood (39:10), and it is these abandoned weapons that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9). Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when the antichrist rises to power to rule the world. “A wave of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . . The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . . [T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control the world.”11 How does this assessment of the near prophetic future square with a supposed tribulation period when Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood from the forests”? (39:10). There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears. And what is the Russian air force after? Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12–13). In what modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle? How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?12
Chuck Missler attempts to get around the description of ancient war implements by claiming that the various Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that could be describing a mechanized force.”13 The word translated “horse,” “actually means leaper” that “can also mean bird, or even chariot-rider.” He tells us that the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic term for any weapon or destroying instrument.” In a similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as a missile.” We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the [missile].”14 Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500 years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators, breaks all the rules of exegesis.
2. M. R. DeHaan, Signs of the Times and other Prophetic Messages (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1951), 74.
3. Carl G. Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).
4. Jack Van Impe, The Coming War With Russia (Old Time Gospel Hour Press, n.d.). The quotation is taken from a message that Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple, Canton, Ohio. The talk was recorded and available on a as an LP. Quoted in Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These, 82–83.
5. From an address that Ronald Reagan gave at a dinner with California legislators in 1971. Quoted in Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Culture (Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University, 1992), 162.
6. Chuck Missler, Prophecy 20/20: Profiling the Future Through the Lens of Scripture (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2006), 155.
7. Francis X. Gumerlock, The Day and the Hour: Christianity’s Perennial Fascination with Predicting the End of the World (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2000), 68.
8. T.R., “Commentary on Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Gog and Magog,” The Gentleman’s Magazine (October 1816), 307.
9. Wikipedia
10. Gary DeMar, Islam and Russia in Prophecy: The Problem of Interpreting the Bible Through the Lens of History (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2005).
11. Tim LaHaye, “The Coming Wave,” in Ed Hindson and Lee Fredrickson, Future Wave: End Times, Prophecy, and the Technological Explosion (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2001), 7–8.
12. This claim will be discussed in a later chapter.
13. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
14. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
Nonsense -- He spent 40 days teaching the apostles that He would restore the kingdom to Israel -
Where's it say that?
Re the content of Jesus' post resurrection teaching, I find only:
"And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself....
hen he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
In other words, Jesus taught them to see that the Old Testament was about Him.
Sorry, the text does not support your eisegesis. In fact you could search the entire NT for not one word of restoration of the kingdom to national Israel. His disciples got the message. They figured out exactly what He was telling them in those last few moments He had with them here on earth. You can search the NT from start to finish and you still cannot find the when, where, how details regarding the alleged restoration of the kingdom to national Israel.
That makes no sense.
I’m not surprised. It does make sense if you do not force a restorationist view on the text.
Such an opinion violates every rule of biblical interpretation. The parallel between Matthew and Luke is undeniable. Even knowable dispensationalists do not try to deny the parallel.
If they had fled when they saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem, then they wouldn't have been there at all to see the temple destroyed.
I think this is a case of failing to see the forest for the trees. Everyone knew the temple was destroyed. No one had to see it with their own eyes. Many Jewish Christians never returned to the city. There is nothing required in the text along the lines you are suggesting.
Furthermore according to Daniel 9, the abomination of desolation is to occur in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel,
I think you are misreading the timing of Daniel 9. All verse 27 is saying there is that in the midst of the seventieth week "He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." That is what Jesus did by going to the cross. And His sacrifice set in motion all the other events leading up to the abomination in AD70. It was all determined by the timing of His sacrifice.
That theory is not supported from the text of Scripture. In fact, in one case it is denied. That is in the case of the method of Jesus’ death. Psalm 22 is a Messianic psalm in which we are told, "They pierced My hands and My feet". In fact vv. 14-18 is a pretty accurate description of Roman crucifixion centuries before the practice of execution was invented.
There is no reason to think that prophecies are about modern weapons thousands of years removed from the author.
And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north,
UFO? What’s your point? What is this describing? It sounds much like the theophanies of God found throughout the OT, cf. the pillar of fire at the time of the flight from Egypt.
We may see a new sacramental rite evolve within the Pentecostal churches.
I would not discount Russia. It is as probable as any other entity to the north of Israel. For every tracing of Magog's kin there is another tracing them elsewhere, including Macedonian Greece, and even some evidence that they became Austria/Germany, though I personally believe Germany to be founded in Gomer or perhaps the Hatti Assyrians.
To be frank, however... Considering current events, I can think of no better candidate for Magog than Russia.
"Hooks in your jaws" and "Turn you around" certainly describe Russia's recent and waning attempts at reformation, and there can be little doubt that Russia protects, arms, and instructs the Muslim horde, that entity which encompasses all the prerequisite nations predicted to go with Magog to their doom upon the mountains of Israel.
I will not discount Russia as Magog, but neither will I endorse it either as those who suppose to know the will of Jehovah seldom get it right. I will wait and watch.
Regarding Gog, here's an idea: I have come to believe Gog to be a person, but not an earthly king. The title of "chief prince" is given to archangels... Michael is a "chief prince". Perhaps Gog is the antithesis of Michael, an arch-demon in charge of the people of Magog in much the same way that Michael looks after Israel. Speculation of course, but interesting to me.
Christ took the Gospel away from the Jews and gave it to those who were "lo-ammi" (not my people) who would bear fruit.
The House of Israel (as opposed to House of Judah, Jews) were named Lo-ammi when they were dispersed, and Ephraim is "the fruitful bough". It is also written that at the end, Judah would no longer be jealous of Ephraim... The Gospel was given to Ephraim, who then brought it to the Gentiles.
But that is for another thread.
” I suspect we mortals end up in disputes over things such as end times prophesies because we are “time-bound” creatures.”
There are a host of theologians and philosophers that have concluded that our “time-boundness” is actually a participation in eternity and our being is understood as an anticipation of the future.
“He set eternity in the hearts of men”
-The Preacher
I'm reading and see I've walked into the twilight zone. when John said "Behold the Lamb" was he talking about a 4 legged fuzzy wuzzy?
"In other words, . . ."
To be frank, however... Considering current events, I can think of no better candidate for Magog than Russia.
“Hooks in your jaws” and “Turn you around” certainly describe Russia’s recent and waning attempts at reformation, and there can be little doubt that Russia protects, arms, and instructs the Muslim horde, that entity which encompasses all the prerequisite nations predicted to go with Magog to their doom upon the mountains of Israel.
I will not discount Russia as Magog, but neither will I endorse it either as those who suppose to know the will of Jehovah seldom get it right. I will wait and watch.
Regarding Gog, here’s an idea: I have come to believe Gog to be a person, but not an earthly king. The title of “chief prince” is given to archangels... Michael is a “chief prince”. Perhaps Gog is the antithesis of Michael, an arch-demon in charge of the people of Magog in much the same way that Michael looks after Israel. Speculation of course, but interesting to me.
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VERY WORTHY POINTS. THX.
This excuse for regort has jumped off the cliff long ago.
1. The person responsible has noted they were wholesale joking.
2. The Replacementarians seem to think they’ve tied onto a telling absurdity and are trying to milk the goat for all it’s worth.
3. John saw what he saw. We could argue about the meaning(s) of what he saw until the 2nd Coming . . . probably fairly fruitLESSly.
4. To deny that John saw what he saw calls him a liar and renders the Scripture of no effect.
5. God gives many mysteries including many truths hidden in plain sight. Contending over them AT SOME POINT is absurd. No doubt there’s little agreement about where that point is.
lol. I have no doubt that John saw a Lamb and it was the same One he saw in John 1:29.
I think quite a number of John’s visual images on Patmos were exceedingly different than those in John 1.
He says so. I believe him. I do not believe he is lying.
Amen. John is speaking of the same Christ who appeared in Isaiah, but who was most definitely not vegetation of any kind.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." -- Isaiah 53:2;10 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him...
Sometimes the Bible is 100% literal, and sometimes it's allegorical, poetic and just as true. In Revelation John even tells us he is writing about a dream. So to look for literal meaning in a dream doesn't seem to be the optimum method of study.
Yes, but more than a dream. He was in the Spirit, so his spiritual understanding was greatly enhanced. Still, if one has the whole bible in regard as one reads the revelation of Jesus Christ there is no big mystery. After all, as John says, the point of the revelation is to show Christ’s servants things that will shortly come to pass. If there is confusion, then it’s on the part of the servants. If any man lacks wisdom, he should ask the Lord to give him some.
Primarily, I don't see that happening because Scripture tells us Christ's birth, death and resurrection actually changed this world. Life is not the same from B.C. to A.D. Something cataclysmic occurred and altered the rest of history and every person who will ever be born.
I believe Christ loves the world His saints inhabit today because He has given it to them so that they may glorify God with all parts of their lives.
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." -- Titus 2:11-14"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
What are good fruits for if not to fill the earth with a reflection of God's glory through Jesus Christ?
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God; And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ." -- Colossians 3:-24"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
This is a happy, rich life Paul is describing. And this joy is what we are to proclaim to all men because Christ changes lives for the better. And as we do so, more and more will hear the truth with ears given by God and join in worship of Jesus Christ. And that will glorify God more and more.
I don't see this scenario as pre-wrath. I see it as post-Christ.
Confidently, we await His return.
So to look for literal meaning in a dream doesn’t seem to be the optimum method of study.
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To automatically; knee-jerkily; arbitrarily; wholesale; with meat axe in hand
AVOID
literal interpretations from dream material is
JUST AS FULL OF FOLLY.
Scripture is often replete with mystery as well as mixtures of symbolic with literal and often the same images etc. filling BOTH a symbolic AND a literal role.
It often seems to me that God deliberately casts His truths in such a fashion . . . by His own assertion . . . at least sometimes to deliberately hide things from those of a certain heart attitude.
And many things are intended to be mystery until closer to or at the time of their fulfillment.
But many things are quite clear. Particularly when laying Scripture along side Scripture along side daily news.
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