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To: Missey_Lucy_Goosey
Yes, that "creative literalness" allows Rome to redefine things when it suits the present agenda.

Re-define? There was only one universally accepted definition of the Christian faith until 1500 or so. Who did the re-defining again?

Do you have any examples of "re-defining", or is this just another demonstration of throwing pejorative commentary at the wall until something sticks?

302 posted on 10/17/2007 4:22:47 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Rutles4Ever
Yes, that "creative literalness" allows Rome to redefine things when it suits the present agenda. Re-define?

Yes, redefine.

There was only one universally accepted definition of the Christian faith until 1500 or so.

Wrong again. The Greeks reject Roman Catholicism as apostate based on several points, one being papal primacy and another being the filioque.

Who did the re-defining again?Rome has and continues to do so.

Do you have any examples of "re-defining"

I've already named one, of the redefining of "tradition" by which Trent declared and empoyed the Vincentian Principle of "unanimous consent of the fathers" for the establishment of dogma and interpreting Scripture, which Rome has violated in it's eisegetical interpretation of Matthew 16:18 in a pro-Roman papal sense while the early church fathers did the opposite.

Another would be the dogmatic declaration of the Unam Sanctum which requires submission to the pope of Rome in order to "attain salvation", which also has been redefined by Rome in the "Dominus Iesus" and Vatican II.

Those are just a couple for starters.

305 posted on 10/17/2007 4:32:48 PM PDT by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: Rutles4Ever
Yes, that "creative literalness" allows Rome to redefine things when it suits the present agenda.

Re-define? Yes, redefine.

As I have already noted Rome has redefined what "tradition" means.

At the Council of Trent, IV Session pertaining to the establishment of dogma, and the interpretation of the Scriptures, Rome declared it must be conformed to the "unanimous consent of the fathers", and also confirmed that same principle at Vatican I.

Following is the dogmatic declaration made at Trent:

Decree Concerning The Edition And Use Of The Sacred Books

Moreover, the same holy council considering that not a little advantage will accrue to the Church of God if it be made known which of all the Latin editions of the sacred books now in circulation is to be regarded as authentic, ordains and declares that the old Latin Vulgate Edition, which, in use for so many hundred years, has been approved by the Church, be in public lectures, disputations, sermons and expositions held as authentic, and that no one dare or presume under any pretext whatsoever to reject it.

Furthermore, to check unbridled spirits, it decrees that no one relying on his own judgment shall, in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, distorting the Holy Scriptures in accordance with his own conceptions,[5] presume to interpret them contrary to that sense which holy mother Church, to whom it belongs to judge of their true sense and interpretation,[6] has held and holds, or even contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, even though such interpretations should never at any time be published.

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As I have already noted, Rome is in violation of that very principle as it pertains to the Roman interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19, by interpreting and teaching in a dogmatic fashion that passage established a Roman papal supremacy through Peter, which is an interpretation and teaching that is most definately contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, which has been demonstrated to be indeed the fact by the citation of several church fathers who do not interpret any Roman papal primacy at all, quite the contrary.

However, I will add a few more to make it abundantly clear that Rome violates the very principle it claimed to rely on, and did so in a self serving manner in order to claim a primacy which never existed.

Augustine:

So what does all this symbolism mean? That receptacle signifies the Church; the four lines it was hanging from are the four quarters of the earth, through which the catholic church stretches, being spread out everywhere. So all those who wish to go apart into a party, and to cut themselves off from the whole, do not belong to the sacred reality signified by the four lines. But if they don't belong to Peter's vision, neither do they do so to the keys which were given to Peter. You see, God says his holy ones are to be gathered together at the end from the four winds, because now the gospel faith is being spread abroad through all those four cardinal points of the compass. So those animals are the nations. All the Gentile nations, after all, were unclean in their errors and superstitions and lusts before Christ came; but at his coming their sins were forgiven them and they were made clean. Therefore now, after the forgiveness of sins, why should they not be received into the body of Christ, which is the Church of God, which Peter was standing for? Its clear, you see, from many places in scripture that Peter can stand for, or represent, the Church; above all from that place where it says, To you will I hand over the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Mt. 16:19). Did Peter receive these keys, and Paul not receive them? Did Peter receive them, and John and James and the other apostles not receive them? Or are the keys not to be found in the Church, where sins are being forgiven every day? But because Peter symbolically stood for the Church, what was given to him alone was given to the whole Church. So Peter represented the Church; the Church is the body of Christ.13

Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you'...'You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven' (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, 'They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ' (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ.
Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.---John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.

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Before his passion the Lord Jesus, as you know, chose those disciples of his, whom he called apostles. Among these it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given the privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, ‘To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ (Mt 16:19). After all, it isn’t just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peter’s acknowledged pre–eminence, that he stood for the Church’s universality and unity, when he was told, ‘To you I am entrusting,’ what has in fact been entrusted TO ALL(emphasis mine). I mean, to show you that it is the Church which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord says in another place to all his apostles: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit;’ and straightway, ‘Whose sins you forgive, they will be forgiven them; whose sins you retain, they will be retained’ (Jn 20:22-23). This refers to the keys, about which it is said, ‘whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven’ (Mt 16:19). But that was said to Peter. To show you that Peter at that time stood for the universal Church, listen to what is said to him, what is said to all the faithful, the saints: ‘If your brother sins against you, correct him between you and himself alone’---John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (Hyde Park: New City, 1994), Sermons, III/8 (273-305A), On the Saints, Sermon 295.1-3, pp. 197-198

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When opposing the modalist bishop Zephyrinus of Rome who first tried to twist Matthew 16:18-19 to mean he was the supreme ruler of the church, Tertullian's interpretation of that passage is in conformity with the other church fathers in opposition to Zephyrinus' twisting of the passage, saying:

If, because the Lord has said to Peter, ‘Upon this rock I will build My Church,’ ‘to thee have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom;’ or, ‘Whatsoever thou shalt have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens,’ you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? ‘On thee,’ He says, ‘will I build My church;’ and, ‘I will give thee the keys’...and, ‘Whatsoever thou shalt have loosed or bound’...In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key; you see what key: ‘Men of Israel, let what I say sink into your ears: Jesus the Nazarene, a man destined by God for you,’ and so forth. (Peter) himself, therefore, was the first to unbar, in Christ’s baptism, the entrance to the heavenly kingdom, in which kingdom are ‘loosed’ the sins that were beforetime ‘bound;’ and those which have not been ‘loosed’ are ‘bound,’ in accordance with true salvation...---(Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951), Volume IV, Tertullian, On Modesty 21, p. 99).

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Tertullian says that the Church is built through Peter as Peter was symbolic of the entire church, as the church preaches the gospel. This preaching is how Tertullian explains the meaning of the keys. They are the declarative authority for the offer of forgiveness of sins through the preaching of the gospel. If men respond to the message they are loosed from their sins. If they reject it they remain bound in their sins. Tertullian explicitly denies that this promise can apply to anyone but Peter.

Likewise, Origen concurs with Tertullian, Augustine, Eusebius and the other church fathers I will be citing in Peter being a symbolic representative of the entire church whereas the Rock the Church is built upon is the faith Peter expressed in Christ, and the "keys" are bestowed to each and every Christian through the preaching of the Gospel. What was promised to Peter is given to all believers who truly follow Christ. They all become what Peter is, expressed in the following comments: .

Origen:
And if we too have said like Peter, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, ‘Thou art Peter,’ etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the Church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.

But if you suppose that upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, ‘The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,’ hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, ‘Upon this rock I will build My Church?’ Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ be common to others, how shall not all things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ If any one says this to Him...he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters...And to all such the saying of the Savior might be spoken, ‘Thou art Peter’ etc., down to the words, ‘prevail against it.’ But what is the it? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church, or is it the Church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the Church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds His Church, nor against the Church will the gates of Hades prevail. Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which the Christ builds the Church, nor the Church built by Jesus upon the rock---Allan Menzies, Ante–Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1951), Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Chapters 10-11

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Origen, Tertullian and Augustine are explicitly clear that the "keys" are NOT exclusively given to Peter the man, nor to the popes of Rome but to each and every true believer in Christ.

Those, along with the previous citations given earlier should suffice in demonstrating conclusively and incontrovertibly that Rome's interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19 is contrary to the "unanimous teaching of the Fathers", which the above and the one's to follow are representative of the overwhelming majority of the church fathers, however, I will add a few more for good measure.

John Chrysostom speaks of James, not Peter, as possessing the chief rule and authority in Jerusalem and over the Jerusalem Council:

This (James) was bishop, as they say, and therefore he speaks last..There was no arrogance in the Church. After Peter Paul speaks, and none silences him: James waits patiently; not starts up (for the next word). No word speaks John here, no word the other Apostles, but held their peace, for James was invested with the chief rule, and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part---Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XI, Saint Chrysostom, Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily 33, pp. 205, 207

Chrysostom additionally, in concurrence with the cited above, interprets the keys given to Peter as a declarative authority to teach and preach the gospel and to extend the kingdom of God, not a primacy of jurisdiction over the other apostles and that authority was shared equally by all the apostles. Chrysostom states, for example, that John also held the authority of the keys and, like Peter, he held a universal teaching authority over the Churches throughout the world:

For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven...(Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, Saint Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1, p. 1).

Conclusion:

The dogmatic declaration made by Rome at Trent and Vatican I that prohibits the interpretation of Scripture in a way that is "contrary to the unanimous teaching of the Fathers" is violated by Rome itself by it's self serving eisegetical interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19 which is most definitely contrary to the "unanimous teaching of the Fathers", and has led Rome to redefine "tradition" to be whatever Rome says it is.

336 posted on 10/18/2007 4:47:08 PM PDT by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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